wardialer
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Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:43 am

Whenever I see like a B737 or B747 on a take-off roll, it does not seem like its going 150 to 190 mph.

And BTW, I do not believe at all that there going that fast at all, its more like 110 mph.

Please dont tell me that on a 6700-foot runway a B737 can acheive a 155 mph ground speed. Thats hard to believe!!!!!!

Seriously speaking of my own opinion, these take-off rolls have to be in the range of 80 to 110 mph the maximum. And same goes for a B747.

One proof might say it all, but until then I just dont believe it.
 
doug_or
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:51 am

welll the large size of the aircraft may make their actaul speed harder to identify to the untrained eye. I can assure you that most large transport aircraft will usauly have a rotate speed at least in the 115-145 knot range (about 140-180 mph). weather or not you choose to believe this is of course up to you.


Please dont tell me that on a 6700-foot runway a B737 can acheive a 155 mph ground speed. Thats hard to believe!!!!!!


welllllll do the math. or the physics. whatever. MGTOWs and engine thrust ratings are widely availble. pick a plane and go at it!
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
aaron atp
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:52 am

it's an optical illusion my friend...

it has to do with how you brain processes information sent by your eyes.


It's getting late, I'm sure someone can fill in the details of monocular vision cues...

If not, I'll give it some thought and post a followup tomorrow
 
doug_or
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:52 am

Please dont tell me that on a 6700-foot runway a B737 can acheive a 155 mph ground speed. Thats hard to believe!!!!!!



also, they must be able to do this in much less runway- an a/c must be able to accelerate and then stop in an emergency to be allowed to take off fro ma runway- for instance on that 6700' runway the a/c may rotate at 3000'
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
mjzair
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:59 am

You judge speed based on the amount of time an object takes to travel a distance equal to its length.
For example a baseball will always look like it is going faster than a 747 if both are travellin at 100 MPH because a baseball travels the distance equal to its size (i.e. 2 inches) a lot quicker than it would take for the 747 to cover a distance equal to its own.
While watching planes land, look at an RJ. I would guess that a typical approach speed is 130-140, not too much different than a 747. But, you will think that the RJ is travelling faster because it is so much smaller.
 
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:33 pm

There is 2 different side to this. If you watch a jet taking off from an observation area- i.e a 737 or a 747 then i agree it doesn't look as if the jet is going very fast at all. As someone mentioned above this is due to the large size of the aircraft. If you look from a pax point of view during the takeoff roll, it will appear that you are going very fast indeed. Just look at the runway go by below you as the plane rolls down the runway. It's all an illusion.
 
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Wed Jun 25, 2003 2:29 pm

As an addition to what i said above look at the difference between an F16 taking off and a 737 taking off. They both rotate at approximately the same speed, only the F16 looks like it's going a lot faster at that point because it is so much smaller. I noticed this at an airshow i was at recently. This 727 did a 100 ft runway fly-by at around 250 kts and it really didn't look like it was going that quick. Then when the F16 did the flyby at similar velocity it looked much quicker!
 
dragogoalie
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Re:

Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:39 am

Yeap, Its a conspiracy, they're all really going 30 knots, you're right, everyone else is wrong :-p
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
sccutler
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:34 am

...of course, in an A-340, there is this concern.

(ducks for cover)
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:08 am

Once again, damn physics!
--
Yeah the A340 usually takes off going 50mph, climbing at a rate of 100 feet per minute  Wink/being sarcastic. I actually love the A340!
Go big or go home
 
fspilot747
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:35 am

"Please dont tell me that on a 6700-foot runway a B737 can acheive a 155 mph ground speed. Thats hard to believe!!!!!!"

Well allegedly this DOES happen so you might just have to accept it. It's harder to believe that you don't believe it. But, I like the way Drago put it. Just keep believing that..

FSP

 
wardialer
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:12 am

So there actually taking off from the ground at a speed of MORE than 80 mph right?????

 
timz
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It's Not Hard To Do

Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:14 am

Okay, let's take a well-loaded 747-400, taking off at 400 tonnes. At zero mph the four engines produce something like a thousand kilonewtons; at takeoff speed it's a lot less, but dunno how much less. What if the average force during the takeoff is, say, 600 kN? That makes the average acceleration 1.5 meters per second per second, so in 50 seconds they're up to 75 m/sec equals 145.8 knots, having covered 1875 meters equals 6152 feet.

So what's hard to believe? Or are you just pulling our legs?

[Edited 2003-06-26 04:24:24]
 
Continental
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:18 am

737 V1 is about 145 knots. That's about 167 mph at the moment of rotation. When I fly Continental from MSP, we're always in a 737. The 737 rotates full about when the runway is halfway done, that's about 5,000-6,000 feet, I'd imagine if you used the rest of the runway, you can get near 240+MPH, so it is indeed an illusion. When I see an airplane takeoff, it may seem slow, it's just the distance that's screwin' with ya.

co
 
LSTC
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:52 am

Well...ground speed at takeoff can be 80 mph....if the wind is right down the center of the runway at 60 mph!

 Smile
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:37 pm

It's the magic elves that use Santa's magic to get the 747 into the air at such a rediculously slow speed. If you listen really closely, you can hear them jingling and whistling as they work!  Big grin
Chicks dig winglets.
 
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jun 26, 2003 3:13 pm

The brain can play some funny tricks on you. Have you heard of the visual illusion where the moon appears MUCH larger when it's near the horizon as compared to when it's directly overhead. The moon never actually changes size throughout it's movement across the sky, but you'd swear it's 2-3 times larger when it's near the horizon.
 
ha763
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:11 pm

It looks slow because of the distance between you and the moving object. You would tend to judge speed by its size and how fast it moves through your field of vision. The farther away the moving object is, the larger your field of vision is. Ever notice how slow and long it takes an airplane to pass over when you spot one way up in the sky? It still is going 400+ kts but looks like it is going much slower because you are watching it move through a bigger space.
 
Rick767
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:29 pm

On a similar vein to Ha763s comment, when we had visitors to the flightdeck in the past a very common question (or comment) would be "It doesn't seem like we're moving very fast".

That is simply because at 37,000ft there is nothing close to the aircraft against which to relate it's speed.

Travelling at 550mph across the ground or sometimes even faster simply cannot be judged from that height. Opposite direction traffic on the same airway 1,000ft below or above also travelling at 550mph is an incredible sight though, that really makes you realise how fast you're going!

Anyway to put some figures on the original question for the 757 we will generally rotate at about 135-145 knots (155 - 167 mph) depending on weight and flap setting. On the 767-300 for a longhaul trip at 180 tonnes we're looking at 164 knots rotate speed with a Flap 5 take-off (189 mph).

So yes, we are going that fast. Honest  Big grin
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
manzoori
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Fri Jun 27, 2003 12:42 am

It's the magic elves that use Santa's magic to get the 747 into the air at such a rediculously slow speed. If you listen really closely, you can hear them jingling and whistling as they work!


Don't be ridiculous! Everyone knows it's the collective willpower of the 400 or so people on board that's keeping that 747 aloft. It's amazing what willpower can do for you... just ask Yoda!

 Wink/being sarcastic

Rez
Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
 
FredT
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Fri Jun 27, 2003 2:58 pm

Will power? Oh, come on! That theory was discarded 30 years ago! It is all PFIL, Passenger Fear Induced Lift. They're all pulling up on the armrests, knuckles white, and off you go. You have to get some speed and noise first to scare them, that's why you have engines and runway.

On approach you need more passenger fear, so you extend the flaps creating more noise.

Noone has come up with a plausible operation for cargo ops as of yet, but they suspect bumblebees are involved.

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:51 pm

I thought it was just a bunch of smoke and mirrors. I mean come on how can something that heavy really fly  Wink/being sarcastic It's all a conspiracy. When you board a 747 you don't really fly at all. Special gas is pumped through pressurisation system which induces hullucinations and you then think you're flying. The engines are really only there to make noise.
 
miles_mechanic
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:56 pm

Rick767 made a good point about not being able to tell how fast you are going when up at 37,000 ft. I remember a couple years ago, I was flying on a Northwest 727, and because of the strong head wind the captain decided to keep the plane down lower so the winds weren't so strong since we were a bit late leaving anyway. Well it turned out that at 24,000 ft where he said we were flying, we were just above the tops of the clouds, and at times there were cloud tops at our height. It was amazing how fast those clouds were going by my window when they were just off the wingtip. A very memorable trip.
Miles
 
FredT
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Fri Jun 27, 2003 4:59 pm

+ve Rate,
sssch! You'll blow the chemtrail secret!

The smoke is really in the wires. Think about it. The wires go to the electrical gizmos. When the gizmos break, the smoke comes out and they stop working as they are smoke powered.

Now, this is the thread to give people increased confidence in flying! Big grin

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
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Bruce
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:28 am

I can relate to this thread. When I watch a 747 land, as it is on final approach, it looks like it is moving sooooooooooooooo slow, like it is just hanging there in the sky. A beautiful sight btw. The 737 looks like it is moving much faster.


bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
Beefmoney
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sat Jun 28, 2003 12:48 pm

Optical illusions can be tricky indeed.

Watching a 747-400 come in on approach is always a little adventure for the mind. Looks like its going 30 mph, but in reality its traveling about 150 mph.

Crazy.
 
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sat Jun 28, 2003 2:12 pm

When i go spotting i usually take my scanner with me and listen in. Normally the planes inbound on the ILS call the tower at 5 miles. From the point when they call tower to when they fly over my head is only about 30-45 secs, so that shows you how fast they are really travelling. Also i've noticed when you see a plane flying high overhead in a clear blue sky, leaving a contrail behind it then the speed really becomes evident. Don't look directly at the aircraft, rather look just behind it where the contrails are being formed and then you'll really get a sensation of speed.
 
wardialer
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Take -off Roll

Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:01 am

I'll bet I could win a race with a B747 If I was rolling down the runway with my 4 cylinder. seriously speaking. I still think there going at around 80 mph or so, illusion or no illusion.

And when I look at these Flight in the Cockpit videos they seem to be moving slower down the runway.

Sorry.
 
fritzi
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:44 am

Wardialer,

Next time you fly, look out the window during takeoff.

If you still think you take off at 80 mph after that, then your an impossible case!
 
m717
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:45 am

Wardlialer,

I don't know what else to tell you except you are WRONG. How many times to guys that actually fly the aircraft have to tell you? Apparently, you're going to believe what you are going to believe, so why bother. I could give you the Vr speeds of all the jets I have flown (B757/767, B-737, MD-80, B-717, etc...and they'd ALL be in excess of 140mph, but I'm sure you'd come back and tell me that I'm mistaken, that they couldn't be doing more than 80. But then again, you'd know better than me, right? Whatever, dude.  Insane

Maybe the next time you're watching the Flight in the Cockpit video, try looking at the airspeed indicator. You DO know what that looks like, right?
 
FredT
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 2:16 am

Looking out my window, the earth does look flat. Can't believe how the entire scientific community have gotten this wrong! I bet I could ride right to the edge in less than an hour with my 4 cylinder!

Couldn't resist! Big grin

/Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
fspilot747
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 2:20 am

M717, don't waste your time. Wardialer doesn't know squat about aviation.

Stick with the non_aviation forum Wardialer.


FSP
 
m717
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 2:38 am

"Wardialer doesn't know squat about aviation."

FSP,

Evidently, that is the case.  Nuts
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:04 am

Yep..we're all liars. Go race that 747 with your 4 cylinder... get eaten alive.


Remember in that video from the 747 the cockpit window's are 50 some odd feet above the ground... thats like driving from a 5-story building.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
wardialer
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Go For It

Sun Jun 29, 2003 9:55 am

M717,

Ok go for it. Give me ALL the lists of rotation speeds. Go right ahead. And im not talking about Airspeed here, Im talking about groundspeed.

BTW, if an aircraft was taking off at about 190 mph, esp a B747, then the tires would blow, so dont tell me they go that speeds on rotation. Any rotation speed more than 80 mph or so, WILL blow a tire due to friction and accumalation of heat.

There you go folks!!!!!!
 
E1FAIL
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:57 am

I drive faster than 80 in my car and the tires hold up just great. BTW, airplane tires have speed ratings.
 
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:45 am

Any rotation speed more than 80 mph or so, WILL blow a tire due to friction and accumalation of heat.

Are you having us on dude? Seriously if that's what you think then you have no idea. Most light aircraft tyres can take 80 mph let alone the tyres on a jet!!! The 727 for example has a maximum tyre speed of 182 kts(straight out of the manual), that's 182 kts groundspeed, NOT 182 kts indicated airspeed, but GROUNDSPEED. So in a B727 you could do 337km/h(209 mph) before you're tyres would burst.

 
ScooterTrash
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:52 am

IMHO, Wardailer has gone sucker fishing and gotten lots of bites! Easy to do here, what with the normally serious nature of the posts. If he is being serious, than he is absolutely beyond hope.

For the record, max tire speed on my pokey little Dash 8 is 139 knots. I really hope Wardailer is wrong about aircraft speed... The Dash slow enough as it is!
 
ha763
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:14 pm

Straight from the Boeing airport planning manual for the 747, the tire speed limit for the 747 tires is 235 mph (378 kph). See the many graphs showing the takeoff lenght requirements from the 14th page on or as numbered, page 66.

http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/aircompat/acaps/7474sec3.pdf

From Air New Zealand's fleet statistics page showing among other things, typical cruise, takeoff, and landing speeds:

747-400:
Max pax: 392
Takeoff speed: 250kph (155 mph)
Landing speed: 200kph (124 mph)

And to compare to a smaller aircraft:

Beech 1900D:
Max pax: 19
Takeoff speed: 185kph (115 mph)
Landing speed: 205kph (127 mph)

http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/aboutus/resourcecentre/aircraft_statistics.htm

An 80 mph rotation speed is roughly the rotation speed of a Cessna Caravan (max pax 12).
 
wardialer
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How Did Get This Info?

Sun Jun 29, 2003 3:47 pm

BTW, why is the take-off speed for the Beech less than the landing speed?? Thats strange, its supposed to be the other way around.
 
ScooterTrash
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:32 pm

Not necessarily true, Wardailer. When departing, a smaller flap setting (in terms of degrees) is typically used than on landing. The greater flap setting on landing increases the camber of the wing, allowing the aircraft to fly slower. For example, rotation speed in a Dash 8 at a mid-range weight is about 100 knots (flaps 5 degrees). We can touch down around 90 or so with the flaps at 15 degrees... Or even 85 or less with the "barn doors" hanging out at 35 degrees. The numbers may change, but these speed relationships are typical for transport category aircraft.
 
timz
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RE: 190 Mph

Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:58 am

(Yeah, it looks hopeless, but...)

How about this. A heavy 747 will take maybe 7000 feet to rotate, right? Sometimes even more. You think they have accelerated from 0 to 80 mph in 7000 feet-- right? But during that acceleration their average speed probably wouldn't be over 50 mph, so they would take 95 seconds to cover that 7000 ft.

Next time you're out at the airport get your watch out and see how much time elapses during takeoff roll.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:15 pm

Wardialer, I thought you died 23 years ago! Fess up, you are indeed my old buddy Don right? The same person who would look at a contrail above and say the aircraft was going only 70 MPH. By now I'm sure you also believe in the chemtrail conspiracy.

Wait a bit, I forgot that we are allowed to joke here and, you are joking, are you not?

I love dry humor.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
IHadAPheo
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Tue Jul 01, 2003 1:11 pm

I have a few links to the goodyear aviation tire site with more data than you can shake a radar speed gun at

http://www.goodyearaviation.com/img/pdf/effects.pdf

or

http://www.goodyearaviation.com/tiredatabook.html
If want want to knlw what tire goes on your favorite comercial jet this is the link for you

or
http://www.goodyearaviation.com
The main page

and (yes there is more)

Just a note on the tire exploding at high speed.. If I was willing and had about $8,000.00 US to speed I could fit my trusty 2001 Ford Windstar with some swank Pirelli 255/35ZR20 97Y PZERO DIREZIONALE tires and rims. These tires are Y speed rated (good up to 186/mph or 300Kph. So if there is a way to make auto tires good up to the speeds listed above and with the Goodyear aviation tire site I am positive that the aviation tires can handle it.

Now if there would just be some way to trick out the Windstar to hit the magic 186 mph and add a wing who knows what would happen, (hey the Windstar might even make it to Antirice.com


Yours,
IHadAPheo

Pray hard but pray with care For the tears that you are crying now Are just your answered prayers
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Wed Jul 02, 2003 3:07 am

Anyone know how many hamsters it takes to get the 744 off the ground?
Go big or go home
 
fspilot747
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Wed Jul 02, 2003 7:24 am



Nah just kidding Wardialer. I just figured some of you would get a kick out of that.

It was irresistable, sorry. Mods if you find that innappropriate please delete the message.
 
ScooterTrash
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:33 am

No, No... That is highly appropriate! Not to mention funny as heck!  Big thumbs up
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jul 03, 2003 4:29 pm

Hey, think about it:

When you take off from runway 09, you are actually slowing down. The Earth's rotation is pulling the runway from underneath the plane which is actually braking...

Whoooooaaaaaaaaa!! Pass up the weed DUDE!!!!
 Smokin cool
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
HAL
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jul 03, 2003 4:47 pm

Hey, think about it:

When you take off from runway 09, you are actually slowing down. The Earth's rotation is pulling the runway from underneath the plane which is actually braking...


Actually taking of on runway 9 you are accelerating because you are heading eastbound, the same direction the earth is turning. If you're taking off on runway 27, then you're slowing down relative to the earth.

Way to go duuuude!  Big grin

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Does Not Look Like 190 Mph To Me

Thu Jul 03, 2003 4:55 pm

Actually taking of on runway 9 you are accelerating because you are heading eastbound, the same direction the earth is turning. If you're taking off on runway 27, then you're slowing down relative to the earth.


That's correct. But at the speeds that airplanes travel at it's hardly significant. If you were attempting to launch a satellite that would be a different story.

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