JBirdAV8r
Topic Author
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:40 am

I was shocked to learn that a CFI I know from home was fired from his flight school last week for not allowing a Student Pilot to fly a cross country Special VFR (and there was a very wide region of the conditions). I don't know many self-respecting CFI's that would let a pre-private student do this, solo, under ANY circumstance. There's no excuse at all. None.

The flight school has a history of accidents (none fatal, yet, thankfully) -- engine fires, engine failure on takeoff due to selecting an empty tank, and--here's the shocker--a CFIT by a pre-private student flying a cross country under special VFR.

I can't for the life of me figure out why the FAA/NTSB hasn't conducted an investigation into any of the above incidents (except for the CFIT example). If the flight instructor were to sue, would he have any case whatsoever?
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:55 am

Remember, there could be more to it than that. But based solely on the information you provided, that's a pretty sorry reason for firing a CFI. The CFI's legal remedies would likely depend on the state. For example, I believe in Texas an employer can basically fire an employee for any reason whatsoever, or for no reason at all (except for race, religion, gender, vetern status, etc.)

The FAA should certainly investigate. Has anyone spoken w/ the FSDO?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
JBirdAV8r
Topic Author
Posts: 3454
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RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:33 am

Jhooper: True, definitely...it all depends on the information.

I'm not sure if anyone has spoken with the local FSDO but I do know (again...rumor and speculation) that pilots in that area are a little intimidated by the owner. The owner in question is rumored to be very "buddy-buddy" with the FSDO guys and no one will speak up in fear of getting "buried"...I can't blame them for that...
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
sccutler
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:30 am

SVFR requires IFR rating. No student could do this legally.

Are you sure you're not thinking of marginal VFR?
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
flyingbronco05
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Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 11:43 am

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:34 am

I think im missing something:

I was shocked to learn that a CFI I know from home was fired from his flight school last week for not allowing a Student Pilot to fly a cross country Special VFR (and there was a very wide region of the conditions). I don't know many self-respecting CFI's that would let a pre-private student do this, solo, under ANY circumstance. There's no excuse at all. None.

So the CFI let a pre private pilot solo or he did not let him. I dont follow.

FB05
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
tt737fo
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 2:13 am

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:02 pm

>>>"SVFR requires IFR rating. No student could do this legally."

---YES and NO. An IFR clearance is required for Special-V ONLY AT NIGHT! During daylight hours, a private pilot may request (and receive) a Special-V clearance.

--It is absolutely true, however, that a student pilot is unauthorized to operate under Special-V.
 
Ralgha
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Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:56 pm

SVFR at night requires an IFR rated and current pilot and an IFR equipped aircraft. It does NOT require an IFR clearance.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:11 pm

Correct, A Special VFR clearance is not an IFR clearance! I do believe, however, that SVFR provides IFR separation.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
tt737fo
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 2:13 am

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:54 pm

My bad, I meant to say IFR rated pilots ONLY can receive SV clearance
 
Ralgha
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Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:02 pm

Yeah, SVFR is provided with seperation from SVFR and IFR traffic, however, an SVFR clearance request will not be granted if it will delay IFR operations in the area.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
CanadianPilot
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:59 am

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:35 pm

SVFR in Canada is exactly that.... Special VFR!!
If you had an IFR rating, wouldnt it be a little silly to get SVFR when you could just file IFR??


-Chris
 
L-188
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RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:07 pm

Gettin an IFR clearance kind of defeats the purpose of going Special VFR doesn't it?

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
sllevin
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RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:26 pm

to fly a cross country Special VFR

Unless you've got a quite interesting route of flight, you can't actually fly a cross country route entirely under Special VFR.

 Smile

Steve
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:30 pm

I have heard of it being done. ;-D

But the distances in the Aleutian Islands are vast, and the weather sucks!
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:58 pm

Yes it does, I would say!
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Fri Jul 11, 2003 4:38 pm

I should add that the usual reason for an SVFR clearance was not because of vis, but because of low ceilings. You have so much more room to manuver when you just have to be clear of clouds.

That and since you where generally following beach, there wasn't too much chance of hitting a mountain when you were over the water.

Of course the guys doing this have been flying the same routes since Otto was flying gliders, so they knew where to go an where not to go.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
cancidas
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Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 7:34 am

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Fri Jul 11, 2003 11:51 pm

SVFR is not only for IFR pilots. Any pilot in any airplane can request and recieve a SVFR clearance, provided the facility that he requests offers SVFR.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:14 am

Cancidas, see above replys for why your statement is incorrect.
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Minuteman
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2000 1:01 am

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Mon Jul 14, 2003 2:00 pm

FAR 91.157 says, "special VFR operations may be conducted ... within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport"

Never tried it, but my understanding was that if you could contact ATC, you could receive SVFR (anywhere, including the non-towered airport 40 miles away from the Class C TRACON). This excerpt makes it sound like it is permitted only within the boundaries established for an airport with controlled airspace at the surface. What's your take?
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Mon Jul 14, 2003 2:42 pm

As the FARs state, SVFR is only permitted inside the confines of the controlled surface area of an airport.

The explaination is fairly straightforward. If an airport does not have controlled airspace to the surface, then the airpace at the surface (and up to the overlying controlled airspace) is class G, uncontrolled. The VFR cloud/vis requirements in day, below 10000 feet, in class G is one mile and clear of clouds. The same as SVFR requirements. Therefore, there is no need for SVFR in uncontrolled airspace.

Another reason is that ATC provides seperation for SVFR-cleared aircraft, and ATC does not provide services in uncontrolled airspace (hence the term "uncontrolled"). This is also why you don't need to file a flight plan or have a clearance to operate under IFR in class G.

 Big thumbs up
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JBirdAV8r
Topic Author
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: Unbelievable Case Of Flight School Negligence

Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:13 am

I didn't even think of 91.157....that's what I get for going "through the grapevine"....

The "revised" story is that the student wanted to do pattern work under Special VFR (hence remaining within the confines of the airport's Class D airspace). The instructor refused.

I would have done the same thing with my student. I would never let a private student depart under Special VFR especially by himself. If the visibility is already low, you could run into an almost-invisible piece of scud real quick....

Actually, wouldn't sending a pre-private student violate the solo endorsements given by the instructor? If you give a student pilot a solo endorsement "subject to the following conditions: Day VFR", he's not legal in anything but Day VFR conditions. Special VFR conditions are by definition NOT VFR conditions, so there's another catch.

Sorry for the stir-up  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet

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