gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:52 am

Logbook Entry Vs Duty Time/Actual Flying Time.

Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:31 am

Hi All,

When airline crews are flying long sectors with relief pilots on board, does each member of the three or four man crew log the entire flight time in their logbook? Or do they only log the time they are actually at the controls?

What about the captain? Often he is PIC for the whole flight whether he is in his seat or not, does he claim the total flight time?

Also in relation to crew duty hours and flying hours limitations, I know pilots are limited to 900 (or is it 1000?) hours of flying a year, but is it 900 hours in the air or 900 hours at the controls?

As always any help appreciated.

Regards,
Gordon.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Logbook Entry Vs Duty Time/Actual Flying Time.

Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:28 pm

The way I interpret the rules, if you are an ATP you can log the entire flight as long as you are serving as PIC, regardless of where you are on the plane. If you're not ATP rated, then you can only log as PIC that time which you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft in which you are rated (SIC time counts too if you're serving as SIC of an aircraft requiring more than one pilot, but I believe you have to actually be stationed at the controls). Does that make any sense? This is a very complicated area of the regs.
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Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Logbook Entry Vs Duty Time/Actual Flying Time.

Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:23 pm

The FARs are a bit different to the JARs in this respect.

"When airline crews are flying long sectors with relief pilots on board, does each member of the three or four man crew log the entire flight time in their logbook? Or do they only log the time they are actually at the controls?

What about the captain? Often he is PIC for the whole flight whether he is in his seat or not, does he claim the total flight time?"


Under JAR, the designated commander of the aircraft may log PIC for the entire flight time, including periods of rest (he/she is still the legal commander even at this time).

The designated co-pilot may log P2 for the time he/she spends performing co-pilot duties in a pilot seat. He/she may log as PIC the time spent acting as PIC and subsituting for the designated commander whilse he/she is on rest. He/she may not log as flight time any time not spent at a pilots seat.

A cruise relief pilot may log PIC for the time spent occupying a pilots seat as a relief for the designated commander, and may log co-pilot as the time spent occupying a pilots seat acting as relief for a co-pilot. Again no flight time can be logged for time not spent in a pilots seat.

Both the designated co-pilot and relief pilot can claim PICUS (In command Under Supervision) for all time in a pilots seat acting under the supervision of a designated commander or his relief.

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gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:52 am

RE: Logbook Entry Vs Duty Time/Actual Flying Time.

Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:12 pm

Hi Rick,

your reply has cleared up most of my confusion, but what about with regards to the flying/duty time limitations ?

Are the 900 hrs per year, 100 hrs per month, 30(?) hours per week and 13.25 hrs per day regulations calibrated to time in the seat performing flying duties or total flight time?

I get the impression this is a very "grey" area in the regulations and possibly open to how each individual interprets it, but what's your opinion?

thanks again,
Gordon.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
dash8tech
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 1999 8:40 pm

RE: Logbook Entry Vs Duty Time/Actual Flying Time.

Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:36 am

...some airlines will actually use ACARS to track flight time using sensors built into the main cabin door. When it closes the counter starts, when it opens it stops.
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Logbook Entry Vs Duty Time/Actual Flying Time.

Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:07 am

"Are the 900 hrs per year, 100 hrs per month, 30(?) hours per week and 13.25 hrs per day regulations calibrated to time in the seat performing flying duties or total flight time?"

Sorry I missed that bit. 900 hrs a year, 100 per month etc... are flight hours (logged flight time). 13.25 hours per day is a duty limitation (from when we report at the airport to shutdown at the stand on the last sector of the day).

The 900 hrs / year limit is a UK limit. Other countries allow different limits and have different maximum duty times, though in JAR states this is going to be harmonised I understand. Not sure if it is still the case but in Italy the maximum duty limit was 24 hours (rather than 13.25 in the UK) with something like 1,300 hours a year flight time limit!
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:52 am

RE: Logbook Entry Vs Duty Time/Actual Flying Time.

Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:41 am

Thanks Rick, much appreciated.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.

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