mirrodie
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Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:41 am

We are considering going from

JFK or LGA to HNL in business or first class

We'd like to stick to Continental, American, BA or one of their partners.

But why does it seem that just about ALL of the flights in/out of HNL are with 767's?? Either that or on DC-10s??

Just wondering what is with all those 767s, thats all.

thanks.
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cancidas
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:58 am

that plane fills the niche perfectly.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:07 pm

Boeing planes only in this explanation:

757's lack range and capacity from most cities.

777's have the range but have too many seats.

767 has the range from most cities if not all in the US and the seats are usually filled or very few empty.
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
ha763
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:18 pm

Less than 10 years ago HNL mainland flights used to be dominated by DC-10's and as they were retired from airline fleets, they replaced those flights with 767's and 757's. The 767 and 757 are also more efficient and allowed airlines to serve the neighbor islands and more mainland destinations.
 
DodgeCharger
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:48 pm

In the old days you could hop a ride to HNL from DAL in a Fat Albert 747. But that was the old days.
 
jhooper
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:10 pm

Flyingbronco05,

I believe the 757 does actually fly to HNL w/ at least one airline. (753?)

One explanation why we see the 767 rather than the 777 going to HNL is that airlines generally configure the 777 with premium seating for international ops. Since HNL is a tourist destination and doesn't generate much profit, there's little point in offering premium seating. By the way, I don't know about other airlines, but the 767-400 at Delta has more seats than their 777s (due to business class seats).
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HAL
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:15 pm

As we were told when Hawaiian bought our new 763's, that plane has the lowest seat/mile cost of any widebody plane out there. When you're flying to a low yield leisure destination like Hawaii, every penny counts. That's why you use the most efficient plane for the trip.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
jhooper
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:40 pm

If that's the case (it's entirely plausible), HAL , then why isn't the 763 operated on all routes that it has the range to serve? For example, why operate the 777 on destinations such as ATL-LGW when the 763 is cheaper?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
artsyman
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:10 pm

For example, why operate the 777 on destinations such as ATL-LGW when the 763 is cheaper?
***************

It is only cheaper if it matches with your demand, but if it doesn't meet your demand, then it isnt cheaper. Delta obviously feels that they can fill the 777 to LGW, and they also get good cargo revenue from the 777 that they do NOT get from the 763.

Basically what the original poster was saying is that if you calculate, the fuel needed, and the per seat costs of the 763, it is cheaper to run than the 777 and they are correct. This however is only relevent in those circumstances
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:09 pm

I believe the 757 does actually fly to HNL w/ at least one airline. (753?)

I meant that airlines that operate the 57, 67, and 77 GENERALLY use the 67 to hawaii for reasons stated above. I know that 57's go in and out of HNL. (ata)

 Smile

FB05
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flig

Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:02 am

Both American and United operate 757s to HNL as well.

The argument on the 767 for everything is that if you can fill one 777, that's cheaper per seat mile than two 763s with the same number of passengers.

Its always cyclical... more frequencies with smaller planes is better for customers, but fewer frequencies with larger planes is better on the bottom line. When things are good, we do a. When things are bad, we do b.

N
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:22 am

Mirrodie - BA doesnt fly to HNL...

Greg
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citationjet
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:21 am

UA 757s go to Hawaii (OGG) I believe.
Aloha 737s go mainland to Hawaii also.

[Edited 2003-08-06 23:22:27]
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
HAL
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:50 am

Let me clear up a few items;

The 763 has the lowest seat/mile cost. Period. However if you are able to fill a 777, then even though each seat costs more to fly, overall you get more profit because even though there is less profit per seat, you have more seats therefore more total profit per flight. And flying one 777 costs less than two 763's.

An airline can purchase the 763 for lowest seat/mile cost, but if you're only flying 100 passengers in a 250 passenger plane, you lose money. However if you put those 100 people in a 737NG, you make a profit despite each seat costing the airline a little more than a 763 seat would. That's why Aloha flies the 737-700 to smaller markets, and makes money on it.

As said above, it's all about what you can fill, and what you can pay for.

Also, North American Airlines flies 757's into HNL (and OGG) for a number of charter vacation companies.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:06 pm

American, United and ATA fly scheduled 757 flights to Hawaii.

American 757-200s fly LAX-LIH/KOA/OGG and SJC-HNL/OGG and seasonal downgrades from 763 for flights from SFO/LAX-HNL

United 757-200s fly LAX/SFO-LIH/OGG/KOA and seasonal downgrades from 763 for flights from SFO/LAX-HNL

ATA 757-300s fly LAX/SFO-HNL/OGG & 757-200s fly PHX-HNL/OGG

Other airlines and the aircraft they operate on Hawaii flights:
Aloha: 737-700
American: 767-300
Continental: 767-400, 777-200
Delta: 767-400 (and a -300ER until Sep 1 for ATL flights)
Hawaiian: 767-300
Northwest: DC-10, 747-200/400
United:767-300, 777-200 and an occasional 747-400
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mirrodie
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Fri Aug 08, 2003 10:19 am

Greg, I know! Sorry to confuse you, I mean a BA partner, get it?


THanks for the info. Mirrodie
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cedarjet
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:27 am

"The 763 has the lowest seat/mile cost. Period." This is nonsense. There is no way it can compete with the 777 on a fourteen hour flight (say, Continental's EWR-HKG service), a 767 would probably be able to carry 100 passengers and no cargo to be able to make the trip. So no way does it have the lowest seat/mile cost, "period". Would Koreanair make any money flying a 763ER on the Seoul-Zurich route, on which they currently fly the A330? Having to stop for fuel (and not carry LD3s to augment pax revenue) en route where the 777 and A330 can go nonstop does not the lowest seat/mile cost make. The 767 may be the most efficient in certain missions (ie medium haul leisure flights) but that's it.
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HAL
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:02 pm

1) Figure the range of the 767-300

2) Figure the cost of running any plane for that distance

3) Divide that cost by the number of seats in the plane

4) The lowest number comes out for the (ta-da!!) 767-300.

Of course the 777 would be better for a fourteen hour flight, because the 767-300 can't do that nonstop!!!  Nuts

If you have to stop to fill up with fuel, of course it costs more. That's why you find only 747's flying from the US to Australia. It costs less that way than stopping a 767 in Hawaii for gas.

But for any flight under about 6000 miles, for each seat, the 767-300 is cheapest.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:23 am

For each seat with a certain load is my guess.

If I have 300 passengers to transport, its clearly more efficient and cost-aware to operate 1 777 on the route with all 300 vs. 2 767s with 150 each.

N
 
ha763
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Sun Aug 10, 2003 7:02 am

A good example of the 767's economics is the amount of destinations served in the trans-Atlantic market by the 767. Without the 767, many current European destinations would not be served non-stop to the US. In fact, the 767 still flies the most flights across the Atlantic.
 
buckfifty
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Sun Aug 10, 2003 12:07 pm

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pdf/econ.pdf

However, lowest seat/mile does not equate to lowest operating costs. Lowest seat mile usually changes by operator anyway, as more seats you can stuff into the a/c, the lower seat/mile costs would be. Yet it could still be cheaper flying a 757 to the same destination, depending on the load factor.
 
HAL
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Sun Aug 10, 2003 2:58 pm

Yet it could still be cheaper flying a 757 to the same destination, depending on the load factor.

One more time, let me explain that seat/mile cost has nothing to do with load factor. It is "X" number of seats going "Y" miles costing "Z" dollars. It has nothing to do with how many fannys occupy those seats. If you only have one passenger to fly, the seat/mile cost stays the same (approximately) as if you had 250. The difference in revenue is the difference between a profit and a loss. It's up the the airline managers to put the appropriate plane on each route, depending on the expected load.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
buckfifty
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:59 pm

Ah...what are you talking about Willis?

Tell me something again. Does a 767 have lower operating costs than a 757?

Okay then. Now that you read my post again, did I actually say that the 757 was cheaper to fly to HNL because it had lower seat/mile costs?

Even as you said, it's up to the airline managers to put the appropraite plane on each route, depending on the expected load...

I didn't post that link up there to prove that you were wrong. I actually agreed with everything you said.

Nevermind.
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:00 am

Mirrodie-Go for the DC10, there aren't too many of those left.. I took an L1011 to HNL/OGG, so nice!

JHooper-Post a link to your movie!  Wink/being sarcastic
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tbear815
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:51 am

At one time, UA flew 3 747's SFO/HNL daily. It was their prestige service in those days, so P/L wasn't so important. That was then, this is now. Economics is a reality we have to live with if the airlines want to survive. Ah, de-regulation; "wonderful" way to go!
 
mirrodie
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:44 am

I will see if I can take a DC-10. would be nice.

last time I was in a dc-10, it was a nonstopper from JFK-HNL on a Continental DC-10 about 16 years ago. those were the days.
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jhooper
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:07 am

Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
buckfifty
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:22 am

A-ha! Is that a working scanner I see on your lap, Mr. Hooper?

(Tsk tsk.)

 Big grin
 
LMP737
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RE: Why Does The 767 Seem 2 Dominate Most HNL Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:15 am

How things can change is a short amount of time. In 2000 I flew into HNL for vacation on the north shore. At HNL most of the planes were DC-10's, L-1011, and classic 747. It was definitely a tri-jet fans Mecca.
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