ajaaron
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Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:27 am

I was travelling back to the UK form the Caribbean in an A340, and noticed that we passed near Santa Maria in the Azores which prompted me to ask:

Are there any time restrictions when very far from an airfield, e.g. like 180min ETOPS for the twin jets?, or can a 4 engined aircraft fly as far from an alternate as the operator pleases. Also would a 180min ETOP flight for say A330 or 777 be able to fly from the Carribean on a direct track to the UK. i.e. are the Azores within 180min of the route?

thanks,

Arn.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:57 am

Quad jets are able to continue normal flight with 1 engine out, although at a slightly lower altitude. Therfore they can be operated on any route. Of course, even in a quad, the pilots will be directed to land at the nearest airport that can diagnose and repair the aircraft.

And I think there is only a very tiny segemnt of the Atlantic that cannot be entered by 180 minute ETOPS aircraft and aircraft flying to the Carribean from Europe come nowhere near it.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
Yikes!
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:47 pm

ETOPS stands for Extended range Twin-engine OperationS. Tri's and Quad's don't have the same limitations.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:06 pm

With an engine failure in a 4 engined aircraft in our company, you may continue with your flight provided you meet several requirements, all related to having enough fuel (Due to increased fuel burn) and the ability to maintain terrain clearance (Not normally a problem on Oceanic flights). There is no requirement to divert anywhere, and provided you meet the requirements, you can even continue to destination.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:53 am

ETOPS stands for Extended range Twin-engine OperationS

More accurately, it stands for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards


*sorry, couldnt resist*  Big grin
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IMissPiedmont
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:37 am

Well of course the flight can continue to it's destination CX, if safe to do so. But if the aircraft is a 747 enroute to MCO, it would likely divert to MIA as it could be fixed there easily. Rare indeed as most aircraft fly into airports that present no problem for repairs.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:58 pm

There will be restrictions in the coming years...

Think of a fire in the cargo bay... non-ETOPS 3/4 Enginges..30 minutes of halon... ETOPs, 180 minutes.
 
Rick767
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:44 am

"Also would a 180min ETOP flight for say A330 or 777 be able to fly from the Carribean on a direct track to the UK. i.e. are the Azores within 180min of the route?"

Yes 180 min ETOPS is fine for a UK > Caribbean flight or vice versa. Off the top of my head typical ETOPS alternates for a Dominican Republic Flight would be Shannon (EINN), Lajes (LPLA) and Bermuda (TXKF).

In fact for most tracks we don't even need Lajes on that route as we could use Shannon (EINN) and Gander (CYQX) before Bermuda and still be within 180 minute range (1,200 nam for the 763).
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
timz
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Atlantic Alternates

Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:02 am

Assuming Lajes, Sal, Bermuda and Antigua are all suitable, then the farthest-from-an-airport point anywhere north of Brazil is 24.062364 N, 42.277428 W, which is 1172.4 nm from Lajes, Sal and Antigua.
 
backfire
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:20 am

More accurately, it stands for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards


Er...don't think so. The 'OPS' is simply short for 'operations'.

Can't speak for anyone else but I've never seen the reference you describe, and there doesn't appear to be a single mention of it in relation to ETOPS on the Internet either.

Perhaps you're confusing it with MOPS which are 'mininum operational performance standards'? *




*sorry, couldn't resist  Big grin
 
Rick767
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:28 am

I don't think I've ever seen an "official" definition of what ETOPS actually stands for either.

On my ETOPS course it was "Extended range Twin Operating ProcedureS".

At the end of the day every airline can call it what they want I suppose  Big grin
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:01 pm

But none has so far mentioned that all current air routes are for the 4 engined airliner? And the first T does indeed refer to twins.

Just parting thoughts.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
ba299
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:01 am

In BA ETOPS stay for: Extended range Twin engine Operations.
In UK we are very lucky about ETOPS specially because we can use the 180 min also on the Atlantic. This is very good during the winter when there are no suitable airport in Iceland. So we take EINN in Ireland and CYQY (or something else) in Canada and we can cross the ocean without trouble.
 
UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:49 pm

Engines T urn Or Passengers Swim
heheheheh. Big grin
Will
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MxCtrlr
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:48 pm

I heard it used as both ETOPS - Extended range Twin Operations and EROPS - Extended Range Operations. Personally, I agree with Will above, Engines Turn Or Pax Swim!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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gordonsmall
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:59 pm

I think EROPS was the set of regulations that preceded ETOPS, I know several A310 operators described their aircraft as being EROPS capable.

Regards,
Gordon
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RayChuang
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:57 am

However, with the 777-300ER likely going to get ETOPS 240 certification, the need for the 773ER to "dog leg" routes on transoceanic flights will be much less than before. For example, if NZ orders the 773ER to replace/supplement their 747-400 fleet, they can fly this plane between AKL and LAX on a fairly straight routing thanks to ETOPS 240 certification.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:34 am

they can fly this plane between AKL and LAX on a fairly straight routing thanks to ETOPS 240 certification.

As if they couldnt already do that with ETOPS180...  Big grin  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:13 am

ConcordeBoy,

Sorry, the 777-200ER can't fly between LAX and AKL in a fairly straight line due to ETOPS 180 considerations. This is probably a good reason why NZ won't get the 777-200ER for transpacific flying unless the plane gets ETOPS 240 certification soon. But since the 777-300ER is aimed at ETOPS 240 certification out of the box, you could fly between LAX and AKL without the dog-leg routing that burns more fuel along the way.
 
tsentsan
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:24 am

Am I right to say that probably the only few routes that a twin jet cant do while a tri/quad can would something in terms of ETOPS and such would be like:

SYD-Buenos Aires (issit EZE?)
SYD-JNB
The Australian Antartica flights...

?

Cheers
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timz
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 2 Engines?

Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:57 am

ConcordeBoy is right about AKL-LAX. If you fly a direct route from AKL to LAX you'll pass just N of the point that is 1200 nm from Hilo and LAX. So even if 180 minutes is a bit less than 1200 nm, the route is "fairly straight".

As for what routes a twin will never fly: depends on what alternates continue to exist. Will Ascension always be available? How about Easter Island? Is Wake endangered? But yeah, the South Pacific route (AKL-EZE now; there's never been a SYD-EZE nonstop has there?) will likely be the last to go ETOPS.
 
RickB
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:26 am

A couple of questions - what speed is taken into consideration with ETOPS? Presumably with an engine out altitude and therefore speed are reduced ? In which case obviously the distance reachable within 90/120/180/240 minutes is reduced from normal cruising speed?

Also - one last point - on an A330, B767 or B777 under ETOPS - what percentage of N1 is used to maintain altitude/cruising speed?

Thanks in advance,

RickB
 
gigneil
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:46 am

United operated LAX-AKL with a 777-200ER under just 180 minute rules for quite a while before discontinuing the route, with only a very very slight route deviation.

Its possible they used their 207 minute power, but I don't believe it was necessary.

N
 
AJ
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:21 am

Run an AKL-LAX flight with 180 minutes ETOPS at http://gc.kls2.com/.

A straight line is often not the quickest way between AKL and LAX, on the 747-400 we would often head further east before turning north to take advantage of the prevailing winds. On a twin that would take you into the 180 minutes no-go zone.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:02 am

Rickb,

For ease of planning, our company refers to the times as also distances.
60mins = 434nm
120mins = 853nm
138mins = 979nm (Our A330s were until recently only 138mins)
180mins = 1272nm

These are determined using the "agreed one-engine inoperative cruise speed". They take into account Max Continuous Thrust on the remaining engine, Descent at MMO/VMO to the flight level for the one engine inoperative diversion and cruise at the flight level for the remainder of the rule time at MCT/VMO.
 
RickB
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:18 am

CX flyboy,

Thanks very much - thats exactly the information I wanted !!

Cheers

RickB
 
gigneil
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:04 am




AJ-

Just how much farther east? I have shaded here both 207 and 180, would you have gone into the 207 (darker) zone?

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:41 am

Its possible they used their 207 minute power, but I don't believe it was necessary.

ETOPS207 is allowed in the northern Pacific only.


Also Gigneil,
the Great Circle Mapper, though handy, is not completely accurate in this case: it calculates its range circles and NoFly zones based on an IFSD speed of 389kt, which is fine for narrowbodies but not sufficient for 772ER ops. Given the 777's higher velocity on single engine ops, the NFZs in the map you presented are actually [somewhat] smaller... thus enabling slightly more direct routing.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
RickB
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RE: Flight Over Oceans With 4 Engines?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:00 am

If an ETOPS flight (or really any twin) has a problem and ends up with an engine out - the remaining engine is run at max continuous thrust for potentially a number of hours. Obviously this isnt the same as firewalling the engine - but do any specific checks have to be made on the remaining engine before the aircraft is signed off to fly again ?

(obviously the failed engine will of been repaired/replaced etc.)

RickB

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