CX Flyboy
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L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:31 pm

I just saw an Orient Thai Tristar taxi to the runway in Hong Kong and during the control check, one of the spoiler panels on the outboard section of the starboard wing stay up, after the others had stowed. The aircraft continued taxiing towards the runway and I thought that maybe they would notice it and maybe stop at the holding point. To my amazement, they taxied onto the runway, with the spoiler panel still up and took off! After airbourne I could see the starboard wing continually drop every 10 seconds or so, then level out again. I am listening on my scanner, but as I am not sure what frequency they went to, I can't hear them. They aren't on approach.

I don't know much about the Tristar's systems, but can anyone tell me if there would have been an indication in the cockpit, any aural warnings or warning lights, and the increase in the fuel burn on a 2.5 hour flight, or even the ability to maintain altitude (FL310) at heavier weights.

It was one of those times when I wish I had a direct line to the tower on my phone!
 
Guest

RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:16 am

I hope some guy at Orient Thai reads this! Your report give me the creeps.
I love to fly on and photograph Tristars so I get seriously worried when I read
your post.

Anders
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:06 am

No-one familiar with Tristar systems? How about other 'classic' aircraft? Did they have the ability to show individual spoiler panel positions?
 
Rick767
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:08 am

Reminds me several years ago of a Jersey European (as they then were) BAe146 taxying ahead of us, after the control check the left elevator was full down but the right elevator full up! Thankfully we were on frequency and advised him of the condition, and he returned to stand before takeoff

I dread to think what might have resulted if he had attemped to depart.  Sad
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
411A
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:14 am

The surface position indicator in the TriStar will show the position of only four spoiler panels....5L, 4L, 2R, 6R.
It is not all that unusual to find that one panel will remain up after the control check is accomplished (indeed a panel can be seen to be extended at the parking bay sometimes), however, it will blow down when the speed exceeds 180-200 knots. It does however degrade takeoff performance to some extent.
Could be a problem with a limiting departure on a short runway.

When the flaps are retracted in the TriStar, the spoilers are not used for roll augmentation, unlike many Boeing aircraft.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:58 am

I see....sounds rather dodgy to me. So theoretically you could have a number of spoiler panels stuck in the up position during a heavy weight takeoff on a short runway at a hot and high place and crash because you have no idea of the problem?! Sounds crazy.
 
411A
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:33 pm

No more dodgy CXflyboy, that sitting behind a CL-44 on the taxiway, and seeing both ailerons drooping fully down.

Gotta remember, no TriStar has ever crashed due to a aircraft SYSTEM induced problem, only PILOT induced.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:48 pm

Well I can't comment on the CL-44, but surely there must be more to the spoiler system than that? Just because a Tristar has never crashed because of it, it seems to me there is plenty of potential for one! Seeing that Tristar continuously dropping it's right wing it seemed the pilot was probably was having a few difficulties controlling the aircraft. On a hot and high day with a heavy aircraft, maybe bad weather, and throw in an engine failure for good measure, seems almost too much to handle!
 
411A
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:13 pm

CXflyboy,

Not for professionals, it isn't.

Why not ask a few who flew 'em at CX, if any are still left.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:54 pm

There are....and I shall do just that! I am intrigued.

....thing is, you must cater for the lowest common denominator, and in this industry there are many pilots who are a little lacking in the 'professionalism' department, especially with some of the more dodgy airlines...Orient Thai being one of them, although I can't speak for their pilots. I have known several people who have flown them and every single one refused to fly with them ever again.

[Edited 2003-08-31 07:57:59]
 
411A
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:20 pm

CX flyboy,

Our company knows all about Orient Thai.
Personally repossessed a TriStar from the folks in 1999, and it required more than $100,000 in various spares just to make it airworthy.
Udom was not pleased. But then again, if he paid his bills on time, he would still have the aeroplane.

Good luck with your 'intrigues'.
 
musang
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:49 pm

Ref. the earlier post about non-matching elevator position on a Jersy 146 - its not uncommon to see a 146/RJ100 with one elevator up and the other down. They're not connected. Basically the control column operates a servo tab on the elevator's trailing edge and aerodynamic forces cause the displaced tab to move the elevator.

The columns are connected under the flight deck floor, but there's no connection between the left and right elevator systems anywhere else. So if one side jams the other still works.

At low speeds, no wind across the tail. So you can do what you like with the controls; the tabs will move, but there's nothing to cause the elevators to move.

A gentle breath of wind blows them about, and often the two are in different positions. MD-80 series aircraft show the same feature.

If the Jersey crew felt they should return to stand, they must have both been rather inexperienced!

Regards - Musang
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:52 pm

Gotta remember, no TriStar has ever crashed due to a aircraft SYSTEM induced problem, only PILOT induced.

And Weather induced.
Puhdiddle
 
411A
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:37 am

Ah yes, but you must remember, the pilots flew into the weather, knowing full well that it was there....even commented about same, recovered on the CVR.
Not too smart.
 
m717
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:53 am

"the pilots flew into the weather, knowing full well that it was there...Not too smart."

Something that I'm sure you've never done in your long and illustrious career. That 20/20 vision is usually crystal clear, and that armchair quarterbacking in a piece of cake.

What's "not too smart" is your constant criticism of other pilot's decisions. If you can't see that, then you really are "not too smart".  Insane
 
Jason McDowell
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:11 am


Amen, M717. I couldn't agree more.


-JM




 
411A
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 6:58 am

Look at the facts.

The First Officer (who was flying, DAL (Dallas L1011 accident) mentioned (recorded on the CVR)...

'look at that, the lightening is coming out the side....", refering to the active cell between them and the landing runway.

Had they survived, it is likely they would have been subject to FAA enforcement action, and possibly criminal action as well.

Stupid is the operative term for these guys. And even many retired DAL guys agree.

Take chances...end up DEAD.
 
broke
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:01 am

The L-1011 had a problem where the hydraulic fluid in the spoiler actuator would leak from one side of the actuator to the other causing the panel to extend.
This would usually occur on the ground from residual pressure in the system. Once normal hydraulic pressure was applied, the panel would retract.
So it was possible to see an airplane on the ground with one panel extended; it was not common, but it did happen.
 
m717
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:16 am

So, 411A..

You have NEVER operated in an area of "active" weather? You would have bailed out that day at DFW...not knowing what you know now, but with the information that was presented to that crew? I noticed that none of the other aircraft that flew into DFW immediately prior to the DL flight were subjected to "FAA enforcement action" or "criminal action". Give me a f*cking break. You claim to be an "airline captain"???

I just find it disgusting that you are on various message boards..not just this one...constantly criticizing decisions that other pilots make. I guess that somehow by pointing out what you perceive as failings in others make up for the deficiencies you see in yourself. Kind of sad, actually.

Get a life. Or is this your life?  Insane
 
AJ
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 9:43 am

CXflyboy, when you've talked to any previous L1011 pilots please let us know their responses here.

It was always disconcerting on the Mu-2 that when holding the aircraft upright engine out with a whole lot of rudder and 'aileron' that it meant the spoiler panels were all sticking up on one wing....not good for the climb gradient.

As for the DFW accident; as with most things in aviation the deaths of the crew have taught the rest of us an important lesson and led to a better understanding of windshear and microbursts. I've ranted about the tombstone imperative before on this forum, but it is now nice to know that my aircraft will announce 'WINDSHEAR, WINDSHEAR' and I have a prescribed escape procedure.

'TERRAIN, TERRAIN', 'TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC' and so on are a result of too much blood spilt, and now protect me and the hundreds of people following me.

Post mortem these guys did not deliberately kill themselves and their passengers, however the lives they have indirectly saved outnumber the numbers killed in the accident. Fault and blame is human nature, so I don't critisize those DIRECTLY involved for doing so, but the rest of us should simply learn from these occurences.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 9:54 am

Man, I've seen some "thread creep" on boards before, but this one is a doozy...

In case anyone wants/needs some factual info on DL191, check out...

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR86-05.pdf

Many interesting tidbits, but it's noteworthy that...

1/ The cell involved went from a DVIP level-1 intensity to a DVIP level-4 intensity in the space of a mere 8 minutes...

2/ Several other pilots observed the lightning...

3/ The CWSU met guy was on a lunch break, and nobdy caught the rapid escalation of the cell.

Lots of other info bits, too numerous to mention...

Dr. Ted Fujita (yes, -that- one) had a book out on this accident in the late 1980s called (appropriately enough) "The DFW Microburst" and it's must reading for anyone in avaiation....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
411A
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:13 am

M717,

You are correct that I am on several message boards, and my comments generally are directed toward those that SHOULD know better, but somehow have missed the boat when aviation saftey is discussed.

Junior guys have an excuse...they have not been exposed to thousands of airline flight operations over many years.
BUT, the senior guys absolutely should know better, and have a duty and responsibility to teach others so that mistakes are not repeated. Have been involved in airline checking/training worldwide since 1979, so definately have an idea what works (keeps you alive), and what does not (dead).

CXflyboy,

You mentioned previously that you were a 777 second officer (or was it first officer) for CX.
Find it strange that you hang 'round the HongKong airport with a scanner, generally find that flight crew have 'had enough' when they are on the ground.
Could it be that you are not as advertised? Or maybe, just a total aviation person... Wow!
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:32 am

Did all the flightcrew of DL 191 perish in the accident? I thought at least the FE survived?
 
OPNLguy
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:38 am

All cockpit crew lost...

"Of the 163 persons aboard. 134 passengers and crewmembers were killed; 26 passengers and 3 cabin attendants survived."
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:58 am

...I do seem to recall that the F/E on Eastern 401 (CFIT, Everglades, 1972) was down in the E&E and survived the initial impact, only to pass away later.. Was that the one you were thinking about?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:31 am

Yeah must of been the Eastern L1011 accident thanks. He did indeed survive and was even interviewed before he passed away later.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:49 am

411A,

I am indeed a total aviation person. As a kid I used to go to Kai Tak and watch planes and take photos. Many on this website are from me. I had a scanner and binoculars and used to spend at least a day a week spotting at Kai Tak. When I went to university I took my hobby there, and now I am in Cathay, I see no reason for my hobby to stop. I have certainly not suddenly got bored of it all just because I am now a pilot. I still love everything about planes....coming on the forums, looking at new photos, going spotting, taking photos, listening in on the scanner, buying models etc... I am a total aviation nut and proud of it!....and I am FO on the 777.

AJ,

I will certainly ask some of the Captains I fly with, however my roster in the next few weeks are all with fairly new captains so it could be a while before I get an answer!!
 
barney captain
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 5:30 pm

"Have been involved in airline checking/training worldwide since 1979,.."

But have you done any actual LINE flying. Your comments smack of someone that has never been humbled by a simple misjudgment in an aircraft.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Air1727
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:50 pm

Without going into specifics, the L-1011 has no problem taking off with a spoiler panel deployed. The L-1011 has been tested to perform with all three reverse thrust doors deployed also (both hot and cold stream designs) and it did not loose dynamic stability.

Guys, the Delta L-1011 accident in DFW has gone through enough banter and moot discussions. There is no point in arguing over it now. As an aviation safety professional for many years, I personally found the NTSB ruling on the crew's decisions debatable to a small degree, but whats done is done. There is no use arguing over this now, or tearing anyone down over their opinion.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
411A
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Tue Sep 02, 2003 12:52 am

Barney,

Is 23,000 line flying hours (17,000 in heavy jets) enough for you?

My comments notwithstanding, have been there/done that, so definately know what i'm talking about.

And your 'experience' would be....what?  Wink/being sarcastic

[Edited 2003-09-01 17:56:13]
 
N243NW
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:10 am

Cx Flyboy-
Is there any chance that you saw the roll spoilers deployed due to a crosswind from the right? The roll spoilers assist the ailerons with roll control and are often used as an aircraft takes off to prevent the wind from picking up the wing. As the aircraft gains speed, less aileron authority is needed and they are gradually stowed. The confusing part is you said that they remained deployed after the other spoilers had been retracted and the spoiler remained extended as the a/c climbed away. Just a guess, but I am not familiar with the L-1011's systems. By the way, sorry if you already know all this about roll spoilers.
-N243NW Big grin
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:31 am

N243NW,

No, it was definately not that. It was stuck after the control check. The same tristar came in again today, and my friend saw it and said he saw the same thing today. Not sure if it was the same panel but it was on the same wing. Very odd.
 
barney captain
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:37 am

411a,

Fair enough. Your post referred to Airline checking/training, I was simply looking for clarification. I still disagree with your Monday morning Quarterbacking - have you NEVER been caught off guard? FWIW 14000 hrs, Capt. B-737 for past 10 years.

Meanwhile, back at the original thread..............


I still find it amazing that the L-1011 in ? still had the spoiler panel deployed after lift-off (let alone during the T.O. roll). Performance considerations seem staggering, not the least of which is an engine failure past V1. I would think the required roll authority would not be present. Yikes.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
411A
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Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: L1011 Take Off With Spoiler Panel Up.

Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:40 am

Interesting about the L1011.
Worked at a middle-east company that had quite a few, and former Lockheed development/production test pilots were hired to assist with line training.

One mentioned to me that the TriStar was tested at max weight, both all engines operating and one wing engine inop with four spoiler panels (each wing) deployed at liftoff (the most likely failure scenario) and the aircraft was still easily controlable, but of course climb performance was degraded.

Have a lot of respect for the design, and it served me well indeed for twenty years.

Barney,
Yes, one in particular, landing at the old TPE airport (ry 08), wet and windy (approaching typhoon) and hydroplaned for 7000 feet, and just got it stopped at the end...in a Boeing 707 at max landing weight.
Suggested to the company that perhaps tankering fuel to TPE was really not a good idea, and to their credit, they agreed.

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