tarzanboy
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:18 am

Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:12 am

hi..

can the concorde, 757, 767, 737-800, md83 autoland (hands-off)?
 
TWAMD-80
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:26 am

I know for sure that the MD-83 can do an auto land. I would assume that the 757,767, and the 737-800 have the same capability. However I'm not very sure about the concorde. The auto land is used for CAT III approaches if the weather is very bad.

TW
Two A-4's, left ten o'clock level continue left turn!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:29 am

I believe that everything made after the L-1011 has autoland capability. The L-1011 did it first in 1974. However, there aren't to many airports that have Cat 3c approaches (0 vis/0 ceiling) so, it isn't done too often worldwide.

I don't know if the Concorde can do it though.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
tarzanboy
Posts: 124
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:37 am

hey...if an l1011 flies into a non Cat 3 airport...but the tristar has the autoland feature.....and the airport has ILS./...can the aircraft autoland?
 
s.p.a.s.
Posts: 916
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:53 am

@Boeing_nut

Wasn't the Trident 3 the first one to perform an autoland?

Rgds

RS





[Edited 2003-09-28 04:56:51]
"ad astra per aspera"
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:12 pm

The Trident did it first in 1965. Are autolands only used on low vis Cat 3 approaches or do pilots sometimes do them even in good weather? On my scanner i sometimes hear when 737 pilots are planning on doing an Autoland they advise ATC of it- is that a requirement?
 
s.p.a.s.
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Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:04 pm

RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:15 pm

Thanks for confirming on the Trident, Positive. I understand that autolands have to be practiced from time to time in order to keep the crew current with the procedures and due legal concerns (some rule that mandates at least one autoland every "x" time..)

Cheers

Renato
"ad astra per aspera"
 
AJ
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:17 pm

ATC is advised so that the localiser and glideslope antenna areas are protected, a vehicle or aircraft disturbing the signal could ruin your day whilst autolanding (manual intervension may become necessary).

The 767 certainly autolands, does quite a good job too.
 
cancidas
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:57 pm

did Kai Tak ever have one installed?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
danielbk
Posts: 184
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 3:09 pm

Cancidas,

Kai Tak had a different sort of approach.

the autoland system tracks the ILS beacons (localizer glideslope).

Kai Tak had an "IGS" approach system, which as much as i know made autolands impossible. you hat to manually turn your plane right towards the runway at a certain distance (DME) from the famous "checkboard" mountain.
cockpit? it's that little room in the front of the plane where the pilots seat.. but that's not important now
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 10:54 pm

Thanks for the clarification on the first autoland guys. I thought it was the L-10.

hey...if an l1011 flies into a non Cat 3 airport...but the tristar has the autoland feature.....and the airport has ILS./...can the aircraft autoland?

I'm not sure if the Trident and L-1011 performed the autolands with just the onboard equipment, or if the airfield had Cat3 capabilities. Legally, I don't think so. Both the airfield and the aircraft have to have Cat3 equipment to do the autoland. That is, in Cat3 weather conditions. If the pilots wanted to do an autoland at an airport with just a Cat1 rating in VFR conditions, I have no idea.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Guest

RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:33 pm

I remember both the Trident and the Caravelle, being tested (autoland) for operations in "zero-zero" landings (no ceiling, no visibility) = Cat.IIIc - around 1966 or 1967... but I cannot recall the specifics...
xxx
It was tought that both BEA and Air France would be operating Cat.IIIc on their London to Paris route. I also remember that the French postal service was extremely interessed in the Cat.IIIc capability to deliver early morning mail, "no matter what the visibility is"... They were to operate the SE-210 for these flights, possibly from Air France or Air Inter...
xxx
That is all I can remember. My old magazines are in boxes in my cellar... would take me days to find any info about what was done and when, the only definite fact, is that both Tridents and Caravelles did autoland, back then...
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:43 pm

I have experienced one autoland on a 717 in good weather. Truth be told, I like it better when the pilot lands.
Puhdiddle
 
cptkrell
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:47 pm

"BULLETIN

DULLES INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, Va., May 25, 1972 - A Lockheed L-1011 TriStar jetliner arrived here at 3:25 PM today after a completely automatic flight from its home base in Palmdale, California.

Veteran Lockheed test pilots A. W. (Tony) LeVier and Charles (Chuck) Hall did not touch the control column of the big, Rolls Royce powered trijet from the time of brake release on the Palmdale runway until after the L-1011's fully automatic landing at Dulles."

Note date, 1972, however, note too, that was a TOTAL flight profile. The L-1011 was the first aircraft to be certified for Cat III landings included in its' initial FAA type certificate...Jack
all best; jack
 
tarzanboy
Posts: 124
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:05 am

so guys....reading the reply #13,,,

wouldnt the pilot be required to manually rotate the plane?

or the auto pilot rotates it?
 
AAR90
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:11 am

AA's 737-800 is not certified for autoland [autopilot landing]. We hand-fly the HUD for all low visibility approaches --i.e. today's CAT-II landing at LAX.  Wink/being sarcastic
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
cptkrell
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:58 am

Tarzanboy; if you re-read my reply (#13), it should be recognized that the L-1011 AFCS (Automatic Flight Control System) rotated the aircraft from "start-to-finish" with no manual pilot authorization (save monitoring instruments and programming computer inputs). Kind regards...jack
all best; jack
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:02 pm

The 737 only has qty 2 autopilot systems and I don't believe it is certified for Cat 3C autolands. It certainly can do an autoland, but just isn't certified for this in zero visibility.

When the 717 was first delivered, I believe they were Cat 2 certified. If an airline wants Cat 3, then the airplane would need to be certified for it. (this was some years ago, it may be Cat 3 today).

An airline must also be certifed to perform the different Catagory autolands. I'm aware of an airline in China that performed an autoland with a 737 (the airline wasn't certified) and missed the runway by a few yards. Luckly the ground was frozen and no real damage occurred to the airplane. The problem was, the ILF localizer beam was off a couple degrees (meaning the airport wasn't being maintained for autolands).

Cheers
 
411A
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:17 pm

Those folks who have not flown the Lockheed L1011 really have no idea what control inputs are required for takeoff, or indeed any other maneuver, news articles notwithstanding.
The TriStar autopilot(s) cannot be engaged in the command mode on the ground.
Only ONE autopilot can be engaged in the CWS (control wheeling steering) mode on the ground, and in that mode, the PILOT must manually rotate the aircraft for takeoff.
The command mode can be engaged once airbourne. No altitude restrictions.
In addition, the autothrust system cannot be engaged for takeoff, ONLY when airborne.
The autothrust system is unsuited for cruise flight (excessive throttle movement, engine surging) however, those aircraft fitted with a flight management system (FMS) can have the 'thrust management" mode engaged once airbourne, for climb, cruise and initial descent.
For ILS approaches (and the resulting approach/land function), thrust management must be de-selected and the autothrust system used.

For those operators that are certified for CAT II/III approaches (using the approach/land mode of the autopilots), gold wire checks and other related maintenance functional checks need to be carried out on a regular predetermined schedule.

The L1011 will approach/land (autoland) very nicely using a standard ILS airport installation, to CAT I minima, with only one autopilot engaged.
CAT II/III approaches require two autopilots to be engaged.

Have personally performed over five hundred autolands in the TriStar, without the slightest indication of any malfunction whatsoever.





 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:30 pm

Dear 411A; thank you for additional clarification from an L-1011 driver. I would like to add a reference from L-1011 test pilot and Lockheed director of flying operations, "Tony" LeVier, who said that from the time that the brakes were released prior to takeoff, he and copilot Hall simply monitored the instruments and systems and dialed course and altitude changes into the AFCS. His statement comes from not a news article but a book on the development of the TriSar ("L-1011 TriStar and the Lockheed Story", Ingells, 1973) which also includes a Lockheed drawing illustrating same and labeled same.

I should suppose then, that production L-1011s capabilities have either been slightly reduced from prototype test ops, or those earlier claims were slightly embellished? This is in no way a challenge to your expertise but a point of curiosity from my perspective...kind regards....Jack
all best; jack
 
411A
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:22 am

Jack,
Probably not embellished, but suspect the aircraft used had the hydraulic EDP interlock de-activated, to enable one autopilot to be engaged in command on the ground, so the pilot could use the v/s thumbwheel to rotate for takeoff.

An interesting exercise.

Another aircraft that had total CATIIIc capability was the Shorts Belfast (total of ten built for the RAF), which used a very similar Smiths autopilot as fitted to the HS121 Trident.
During the blind landing trials for the Belfast at RAE Bedford, more than 800 autolands were performed, and they they were so precisey accurate, that the aircraft landed in exactly the same spot repeatedly so as to cause the runway surface to start to deteriorate. The gligepath beam had an error introduced at a later stage, so that the aircraft would land thirty feet further down the runway so the runway surface could be preserved.

When the Belfast was removed from service with the RAF, some were brought onto the UK civil register, and the ARB (now UK CAA) required a stick pusher to be installed.
This took development and engineering time of course, but so as to not delay the introduction into service, the ARB allowed limited flights with a 4th crew member aboard. His job was to monitor the aircraft approach speed very carefully, and if it got too low, he would shout "Stall, Stall".
When the stickpusher was designed and installed, the fourth crew member was no longer required.
An absolutely true story...

Have to hand it to the British, they did all the early development work toward autoland capability, something most have easily forgotten...or never knew.
 
cptkrell
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RE: Autoland, Is It Possible?

Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:31 pm

411A...Indeed, I have learned from this topic ( I certainly did not know of the Belfast, either). Thank you kindly...Jack
all best; jack

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