doc k
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HUD's On 738's

Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:07 am

After spending some time looking at flightdeck views on this database I saw several 738's from DL & AA that had HUD's. Is this something that is on all of their 738's in their fleet, or is this something that is being tested on a select few aircraft?

I imagine that this is something that an airline must specify when ordering, however this would seem to be an excellent device for pilots to use. I am somewhat surprised that it has taken this long for them to be in more widespread use.

Thanks for any responses!

Frank
 
atlamt
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:53 am

Delta's are all equipped with the HUD's on the captains side. I believe AA has them on both sides.
Fwd to MCO and Placard
 
AAR90
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:23 am

CA only HUD for AA 738's. First 50 planes came without and have been retrofitted. Remaining aircraft had HUD installed during manufacture. Boeing initially resisted this, but has since relented after agreeing that all the documented evidence shows HUD is cheaper and superior to the plane's autoland system. HUD is now a Boeing option at time of purchase.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
flykal
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:14 am

All KE 738's and 739's have HUD fitted on the Captain's side. There were initially some teething problems with this device (loss of data transfer between HUD and actual systems at certain times) but this seems to have been resolved now and the HUD is a very useful tool for allowing pilots to keep their eyes outside of the cockpit while monitoring essential information.

One complaint about the system...the loss of headroom which has caused a few head bumps from time to time, especially during turbulence. The positioning of the HUD is rather low!

Cheers.
Phil
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
LMP737
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:28 am

AA evidently got a good deal on the HUD from Marconi/BAE. This was due to the fact that Marconi wanted to get into the commercial HUD market and wanted a blue chip airline to sign up. Marconi and AA actually had a test program for the HUD on it's 737's. One of the issues discovered was overheating. This was rectified by improving airflow going through the over head unit.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
avioniker
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HUD's On 738's

Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:41 pm

LMP737,
Hasn't been rectified. AA's still burning them up. The weather is thankfully getting cooler. What doesn't seem to have been taken into account is that the OHU is a CRT projection TV, high voltage and all and the DGC is the same unit the AF has been loving for the last 20 years. AA let Marconi stick it on the rack where the HF's were originally installed and didn't put avionics cooling flow to the thing. They're relying on the fan on the back. It hasn't been adequate for the AF so I'm not sure why our powers that be thought it would be good to AA.
So far it seems AA's the only one using the Marconi Military version. AA bought it, ostensibly, because of the centerline rollout steering that the Collins version installed by Boeing didn't have. It's familiar to the ex-AF pilots. Also there's very few controls or variables for the pilot(s) to mess with. Hopefully AA'll get on board with a system designed for the plane it's installed in when they start taking delivery again.
Incidentally, the Renton folks (last week) say that they never installed a BAE/Marconi HUD for anyone. They were all done after delivery at BFI.

Atlamt,
AA only has the HUD on the Captain's side. I don't believe you'll find US certificated aircraft equipped with dual HUD's (could be less than correct there). That's because of the possibility of stereo vision distortion which can happen when living life through the HUD. One pilot will always be seeing things normally in the event of a go-around. It also puts different responsibilities on each pilot during approach and landing.

One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
goboeing
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:48 pm

Can someone please explain a little more about why the HUD works better than the autoland system? I'd like to hear more about that from the pilots on this forum.

Nick
 
LMP737
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Wed Oct 29, 2003 11:54 pm

Avioniker:

Sort of chuckled when you mentioned that were still burning up HUDS. Last year I remember us changing out the OHU, DGC and the combiner. This was "supposed" to rectify the issues we were having with the system. Well, at least now we can go into the MCDU and erase all the faults.

Bet you part of the problem is that Marconi is used to making a HUD that's on maybe 1-2 hours at a time. Not one that's on 3-5 hours.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
AAR90
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:54 am

Can someone please explain a little more about why the HUD works better than the autoland system? I'd like to hear more about that from the pilots on this forum.

AA performed multiple test flights in an actual aircraft during the decision making process. The HUD landings were all significantly more accurate in: (a) point of touchdown deviations, (b) glideslope deviations, and (c) speed deviations. Simply put, the HUD expands the flight instrumentation so that any minor deviation appears quite obvious to the HUD flying pilot and he makes smaller corrections much earlier than any autopilot/autothrottle can or does. End result (for example) is that the autothrottles will not start adjusting speed deviations until 2-3 knots off speed during an autoland, but that kind of deviation will appear as almost "off the scale" deviation on the HUD.

Bet you part of the problem is that Marconi is used to making a HUD that's on maybe 1-2 hours at a time. Not one that's on 3-5 hours.

In normal cruise with nothing going on I've been turning the thing OFF for more than 2 years. I've never had a HUD failure and even the ones placarded "system fail" have worked perfectly every time. Don't tell AA's Flight Department though, that's not "proper procedure."  Innocent
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
avioniker
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:02 am

I almost cried when I found out which HUD was bought.
I think you're absolutely right about the time in use.
We were putting cooling air hoses directly on the units in Saudi before putting in the C/B's and setting up for launch in the mornings. We also had crews pulling the C/B's immediately after landing. That helped a bit but the power supplies are "old" technology and make a lot of heat.
I'm convinced that the time spent on the ground in MIA and other warm locations, with no direct cooling air from the packs is the biggest single problem with the AA use of the system.
The thing about stowing the combiner is that the DGC is still idling. The good news is that there's conditioned cool air when you're flying so heat shouldn't be a problem. In case you're wondering how much heat is generated by the avionics suite, the cooling air exhaust is considered the primary source of heat in the forward pit in flight.

As for the inop placards I wonder how many of them are for gripes like "lined up 200ft short on final"? That's a positioning issue. The HUD is only giving you the same steering info as the FD.
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
AAR90
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:15 am

The thing about stowing the combiner is that the DGC is still idling. The good news is that there's conditioned cool air when you're flying so heat shouldn't be a problem.

Don't know, but it sure feels cooler to the touch.  Big grin

As for the inop placards I wonder how many of them are for gripes like "lined up 200ft short on final"? That's a positioning issue.

None. Most are for "system fail" messages. Killing the system when not necessary seems to work for this layman.  Big thumbs up

Wonder how many pilots actually pay attention to their "positioning issue" is greatly influenced by the fact that airports don't "protect" ILS signal at anytime except CAT-II or below weather... doesn't happen much though we often fly CAT-II/-III HUD approaches in CAVU weather... and then write up the thing?

The HUD is only giving you the same steering info as the FD.

Only in NP/CAT-1. CAT-II/-III the DGC is independent of the FD system.
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avioniker
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:00 am

AAR
The DGC is in the E&E bay. What you have over your head is the CRT Video Projection TV. It's cooler because the CRT is in standby with the Combiner stowed.
The DGC is so temperature sensitive that I can pull up the operating history and get Startup, Highest and Average temperatures to check failure modes.
When I've pulled history on mode reversion and blanking pireps I've found (along with power, combiner stow, and temperature problems) an awful lot of NAV parameters not met and APCH selected less than 7 seconds before reaching 500ft AGL (that kicks you out of AIII armed to NP only)

The system is independant of the DFCS (FD) but gets exactly the same data from the FMCS and ADIRU's via common Databus lines.
I've met a number of pilots that think it's repeating the FD information. Not so. It does its own calculating just like the targeting computer it was designed to be. It does have a higher accuracy than the DFCS but that only makes sense since a near miss with a gun is a total miss while being five feet off centerline isn't so big a deal.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy Good night
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
AAR90
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:48 am

The DGC is in the E&E bay. What you have over your head is the CRT Video Projection TV. It's cooler because the CRT is in standby with the Combiner stowed.

Yep, yep and yep. But you're not gonna find me saying I'm pulling any C/B's on any public forum.  Smokin cool

...an awful lot of NAV parameters not met and APCH selected less than 7 seconds before reaching 500ft AGL (that kicks you out of AIII armed to NP only)

Now that's a good one to pass to the 737 Flight Tech folks. Seems to be a "user error" thing if pilots are writing up a problem they themselves caused --wouldn't be the first time.  Yawn

I've met a number of pilots that think it's repeating the FD information.

Isn't that the truth.  Angry I regularly get on a bird after being told by the inbound CA that the "HUD is screwed up again" only to write an Info-To-Maint. that it works perfectly the next couple of flights. Hmmm, is the Info worth writing for you guys? Do you care?

Not so. It does its own calculating just like the targeting computer it was designed to be.

True for CAT-II/-III, but it sounds like far too many CA's have forgotten that fact?  Crying
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LMP737
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:24 am

AAR90:

I'll be the first to say that I care. The more documentation of issues with the HUD the better. This will accomplish two things. One AA M&E can show all this info to Marconi/BAE and say "Hey guys you have some bugs you still need to work out". If we go to them with little or no supporting documentation we will look sort of silly. Two ir you write an Info-too-maint that you had no problems that gives us a better idea what's going on. Less time scratching our heads.

I know it can be frustrating for pilots to have a problem, write it up only to have maintenance say they can't duplicate it. On the flip side it's equally frustrating for us when we can't find a reported fault. Guess it par for the course when it comes to avionics.

P.S. How's it flying into So Cal with all the wildfires?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
AAR90
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:08 am

P.S. How's it flying into So Cal with all the wildfires?

Don't know because I took myself off the schedule when I decided it was time to pack the essentials/valuables Sunday afternoon. Saw the sun & blue sky for the first time today (two days of ash, flames & darkness). Homestead survived as the Cedar Fire (the 400+ sq.mile fire) got to within 1.5 miles and then the winds rather suddenly quit.  Big thumbs up Now under doctor's "care" for smoke inhalation as are most volunteers. Anticipate I'll be able to fly next week's trip. AA was GREAT.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Simply said to take care of family and home and to keep Chief Pilot appraised of the situation. Looks like I used a few of my next vacation hours is all. AA has a few LA based pilots still living in shelters and a few more they've been unable to contact. Guess I'm in much better shape than many. Lot's of AA pilots & FA's in SAN area... don't know how everybody else is doing... yet.

From a few miles away and just 1/2 mile from Socal Tracon building (thankfully no known deaths there): http://www.scrippsranch.org/special/fire_gallery.asp
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Marcus
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:36 am

Any pictures of the HUD's working in the database?
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:53 am

Any pictures of the HUD's working in the database?

Sure:

Delta 737-800


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American 737-800


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Alaska


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Rgds

RS
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LMP737
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:31 am

LMP737:

Glad to hear everything is okay with your home. As a former Orange County resident I'm familiar with the sight of a wild fire approaching ones home.

Last year I had to rush home because a wildfire got to within 1-2 miles of where I lived. Fortunately firefighting helicopters including a Skycrane were able to beat the flames back. Like you my supervisor was more than understanding about having to leave work on such short notice.

Where I live now people are in the habit of burning freshly raked leaves. When I see this I just shake my head. If they were to do this in So Cal right now they would be lynched from the nearest light pole.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
avioniker
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RE: HUD's On 738's

Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:34 pm

I forgot to mention,
If you have questions that's what I'm here for.
ICS: MCI-4080 and if I don't have the answer I have access to people that do.
The resistance at "upper levels" has been tremendous to acceptance of reality in certain aspects of HUD utilization. The one thing I mentioned about the 7 seconds is something I've seen happen on more than one test flight. I know the word isn't getting out.
It's frustrating at all levels, flying and fixing. Like LMP says if we keep a dialog going we'll beat this critter down yet...
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
MD11Engineer
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737 HUD

Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:16 am

We use the same HUD as on Alaska Airways on the UPS 727-100QF. No problems with them maintenancewise.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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