Mr Spaceman
Topic Author
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Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:45 am

Hi guys.

Here's a question of pure curiosity.

If an aircraft is certified in the USA while having 2 control wheels in the cockpit, is it then illegal under the FAR's to remove one of the control wheels in order to make more room in the cockpit? (obviously it would be the right side wheel being removed)

You can see that the right side control wheel in the Cessna 182 in this photo has been removed. I can't help but wonder if it's been temporarily removed for maintanance (perhaps it had a crack in it), or to be replaced, etc, or if the aircraft's owner simply removed it so that he/she had more room for a passenger or whatever.

So, I'm wondering, if this C-182 takes off with only 1 control wheel, is the pilot flying illegally?

I am aware that there are several GA aircraft out there with only 1 control wheel (throw over yokes), but they were certified with that feature.


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Photo © Paulo Rudolf Herren



Thanks,

Chris  Smile


"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
flyf15
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:49 am

Can't say I know for sure and can state an FAR for you either way so I won't be able to answer that question. But, I can say that I have seen quite a few light GA airplanes with the right yoke removed like you see in the picture. Usually used for skydiving, cargo hauling, etc. Often, the right seat has been removed aswell.
 
Ralgha
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:07 am

There aren't any regs that specify how many sets of controls an airplane must have in general. Certain operations do require dual controls or throw-over yoke (such as training).

Like Flyf15 said, it's not uncommon to see airplanes with the right side yoke removed.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
Mr Spaceman
Topic Author
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:12 am

Hello Flyf15.

There's a skydiving club that I visit often during the summer to just sit back, relax and watch the jumpers. The club has 2 Cessnas, a 182 & a 185. Both of them have only the pilots left seat. The other seats have been removed to make room for the jumpers and their equipment. Also, one of them has a modified door which swings upward against the bottom of the right wing, however, I never notices whether or not their right control wheels have been removed.

Perhaps skydiving clubs and companies that use some small GA aircraft to fly mail around need to have a special Supplemental Type Certificate (STC), or something of the sort in order to legally remove a control column.

I know there's certain repairs and maintanance that a pilot can legally do on his own aircraft without needing to have an A&P liscence, but I don't know if you're allowed to start removing parts ....... such as a control wheel/yoke.

I guess I'm considering that there's a difference between removing landing gear wheel skirts/pants and a control yoke. Perhaps in the eyes of the FAA there isn't.

Like I said. This is a question of curiosity. Big grin

Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
liamksa
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:32 am

Here in OZ a person can only occupy a control seat if they either:
- hold the appropriate license,
- are a student, or
- are authorised by CASA.
ie: otherwise the controls must be removed.

However an operator can apply for approval to carry pax in a co-pilot's seat so long as (ie: the 3rd point above):
- no other seats available,
- pilot satisified the passenger will do as they're told,
- must brief the passenger, and
- communication available between the pilot and passenger at all times.

But this could all be useless and irrelevant to the US  Big grin

Rob.
 
jetstar
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:49 pm

If the airplane was certified with both control wheels installed, removing the right side control wheel would require FAA approval.

If the right side control wheel is a factory option, then removing it would be legal, because the airplane was certified with one control wheel and it would just be a log book entry.

 
airplay
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:05 pm

There aren't any regs that specify how many sets of controls an airplane must have in general. Certain operations do require dual controls or throw-over yoke (such as training).

Be careful...this is only true for normal category aircraft (under 12,500 and not commuter)
 
sllevin
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:40 pm

As others have said, you'd have to first look at the type certificate. If both control wheels are NOT on the TC, then you can remove it without any further paperwork.

If the airplane WAS certified with both yokes, then you'd need an STC to remove it.

Dual controls are not as basic legal requirement of aviation. Hence, it's not a given that it was certified with them.

Steve
 
BMAbound
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:03 am

I've seen a 182 with only one control wheel, it was used for skydiv. ops.

regards,

johan
Altitude is Insurance - Get Insured
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Wed Jan 07, 2004 2:17 am

A lot of the older beech bonanzas came from the factory with only one set of controls, but like others have said, you need to look in the FAA AFM under the weight and balance section, usually. I have an AFM for a '78 skylane RG and it indicates that "dual controls" are an optional feature and are not required for FAA certification.
 
Mr Spaceman
Topic Author
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:00 am

Hi guys.

Thanks for your replies.

It sounds to me from your input on this topic that it's OK to remove the right control wheel if you please as long as it was a factory option or you get FAA approval.

I've honestly never seen a Cessna (any type) with only one control wheel. That's why the above photo caught my attention.

I found Liamksa's reply pretty interesting. In Australia, if you're not a pilot, a student or otherwise authorised, then the control must be removed.

Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
Mr Spaceman
Topic Author
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:27 am

Hi guys.

I forgot to add these photos in response to KAUSpilot's reply ........

A lot of the old Beech Bonanzas came from the factory with only one set of controls"

Here's a Beech 35 Bonanza with a "throw over yoke."


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Photo © Yasir Raja



Here's 2 photos of De Havilland Canada DHC-2 Beavers. One has a "throw over yoke", and the other has just 1 standard control wheel for the pilot's left side.


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Photo © Christopher Jacobs
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Photo © Chris Silvey



Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
SkyGuy11
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Wed Jan 07, 2004 2:25 pm

Actually you cannot remove anything installed on the airplane without reweighing and rebalancing it... even if it is a factory option.

The weight and balance is a legal document specific to your airplane (not just make and model) and must be current and onboard when you fly. If that document is not up to date it invalidates the airworthiness certificate and you can't fly until the yoke is either reinstalled or the airplane is reweighed.

As said before, you'd also need the supplemental type certificate because you are no longer flying a 'stock' 182.
.
 
Accidentally
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Thu Jan 08, 2004 12:34 am

I'm not positive, but I have seen the aftermath of one of those breaking off at maybe 50ft...
Indianapolis, IN
 
jetstar
Posts: 1369
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Thu Jan 08, 2004 11:09 pm

Reweighing the airplane and a supplemental type certificate are not needed to remove the right side control wheel.

If the right side control wheel in a Cessna 182 is an option, then the airplane was certified with only the left side control wheel. Since the C-182 is certified for single pilot operation removing the right side control wheel would be a minor modification.

All optional equipment weight and arm data for that model airplane would be listed on the equipment list that should be part of the aircraft paperwork or would be easily available from Cessna.

Reweighing the airplane is not necessary. The current weight and balance would be amended with the data from the equipment list to find the new weight and balance. All is needed in addition to the updated weight and balance is a logbook entry signed off by a licensed A&P technician stating removal of the control wheel and a new weight and balance has been calculated.

Anytime a modification is done that affects the weight and balance, it would be recalculated using the existing weight and balance. Only if the weight and balance is missing from the aircraft’s paperwork would the airplane have to be reweighed and this new weight and balance sheet would then become part of the aircraft paperwork. This is only for Part 91 airplane’s, the same airplane used in Part 135 air taxi operations must be reweighed every 3 years.

No STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) is necessary to remove the control wheel even if it was not on the optional equipment list unless the intention was to sell this modification to other C-182 owners.

If the owner just wants to remove the right side control wheel if it was certified with both control wheels on his own airplane, a onetime field approval from the local FAA FSDO office is all that is necessary. An FAA Major Repair and Alteration Form 337 would be filled out specifying what was done by the technician and signed by the technician and inspected and signed by an IA (Inspection Authorization). The FAA inspector could then approve it from just the paperwork or require a field inspection of the modification. This field approval would only be applicable to that particular airplane by serial number and could not be done on another airplane without another FAA Form 337 and FAA approval.



 
airplay
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:05 am

No STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) is necessary to remove the control wheel even if it was not on the optional equipment list unless the intention was to sell this modification to other C-182 owners.


A field approval may be the way to go...but I would hazard a guess that its not a minor mod. You would probably need engineering input and an 8110.3 compliance statement from a DER.
 
SkyGuy11
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RE: Can This Cessna 182 Legally Fly?

Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:03 pm

Thanks for the info jetstar!
.

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