bombayhog
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon May 07, 2001 11:34 pm

Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:19 pm

A question for anyone that might have a better idea than me about this- I understand that using electronics during takeoff and landing on an aircraft can have a negative impact on communications, etc. and for this reason, the airlines don't allow it.

Realistically, however, how dangerous would it be to, say, have a video camera going during takeoff? Is there a possibility that such an action would endanger the aircraft?

Thanks for any answers in advance.

-bombayhog
 
737Captain
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:16 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:29 pm

The chances of an electronic device affecting with the navigation equipment or communication equipment is hiiiiiighly unlikely, in fact, i've never heard of it actually happening, it's more of a wives tale, i know of pilots that leave their cell phones on all the time in the aircraft while it is in the air. The reason they dont want you using electronic devices below 10,000 feet is because they dont want you preoccupied or tied up with your "toys," is that in case of an emergency you are ready to evacuate, or brace, etc, etc. hope that helps
"Why do you insist on man-pawing the glareshield everytime you climb up here?!"
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:33 pm

737Captain:

The reason they dont want you using electronic devices below 10,000 feet is because they dont want you preoccupied or tied up with your "toys," is that in case of an emergency you are ready to evacuate, or brace, etc, etc. hope that helps.

Also because in an emergency that camera, or whatever you are playing with, would become a missile that would just about knock someone senseless. Not to mention that it would destroy the electronic toy in the bargain.
 
737Captain
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:16 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:40 pm

Ahhh yes, i omited that one, but good point nontheless, that whole inertia thing can cause some damage when you come to an abrupt halt  Smile
"Why do you insist on man-pawing the glareshield everytime you climb up here?!"
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:47 pm

737Captain:

....that whole inertia thing can cause some damage when you come to an abrupt halt.

LOL......it can for a fact.....to both the humans and the toys.  Laugh out loud

 
A330Fan1
Posts: 835
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 2:24 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:25 pm

Just listen to the captains, they know what they're talking about... Smile, it's not like being deprived of your music for 20 mins is going to be a big deal...just do what's safest.

-A330Fan1
 
sebwhite
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:35 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:31 pm

JetBlue CEO David Neelman recently said on NPR that the airline believes electronics do NOT interfere with navigation at all.
 
bombayhog
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon May 07, 2001 11:34 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:35 pm

Interesting...I hadn't thought of the distraction factor of using electronics. Also very interesting to hear about pilots leaving their phones on.

Toys becoming flying objects does seem hazardous as well, yes. But it seems odd, therefore, that they would have no problem with me holding my electronic device, book, etc., in my hand during takeoff, just as long as it wasn't turned on.

Though in the case of the aircraft coming to that abrupt halt, flying cameras would probably be something like number 23 on my list of worries.

-bombayhog
 
bombayhog
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon May 07, 2001 11:34 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:38 pm

A330Fan1- I can see your logic. We must put our trust in the commander of the aircraft. I wouldn't have a problem with not listening to music for twenty minutes, but in this case, I'm hoping to get some footage for a short film, and I want it to be during takeoff.
 
usnseallt82
Posts: 4727
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:38 pm

Although, it would be humorous to modify the GPS settings en route while comfortably on my lovely Motorola phone! I'm sure that would be first in the world of cell phone-tronics!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

But, the whole projectile theory is also a good reason. That is, for some reason, if nobody would mind a little modification on old Mr. Garmin to POP instead of ATL!
Crye me a river
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:47 pm

Usnseallt82:

But, the whole projectile theory is also a good reason.

Last aborted take-off I had, I saw a cell phone come flying up the aisle. It bounced off the cockpit door (the pilots said it sounded like a pistol shot). The battery came off. The face plate came off. The antenna was in a position that it was never meant to be in.

The woman was really upset that her phone just -- darnie poo -- didn't work any more.

Well, of course not. It hit the cockpit door at something like 80 miles per hour. What might one expect?  Smile
 
USAIRWAYS321
Posts: 1703
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 4:31 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:02 pm

I'ved used my camera to take pictures on takeoff and landing numerous times, never been stopped by a F/A, so it's really a judgment call on some items.

Brett
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:04 pm

USAIRWAYS321:

I'ved used my camera to take pictures on takeoff and landing numerous times, never been stopped by a F/A, so it's really a judgment call on some items.

It is, in fact, an FAR. The F/As either don't have guts enough to ask you to put it away or they didn't see you.
 
EKFirstClass
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:47 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:58 pm

Actually the electronics are quite dangerous! I've read hundreds of safety reports where the electronics on board were blamed for abnormal behaviour of the aircraft or the instruments. Thinking that most of the accidents happen during take off or landing (+3 / -8) ALL electronics MUST be switched off!
Links where you can find some more information: http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/Cabin_Safety/laptoppling.html
http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/Cabin_Safety/laptoppling-2.html
As soon as I find more I will post it here.

[Edited 2004-01-11 10:03:14]
 
mattbna
Posts: 280
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:24 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:33 pm


I've never had any problems taking pictures out the window(s) while taking off or landing. I'm thinking that this is because the F/As were in their seats at that point in time and weren't in a position to see me. Had I been holding the camera up in the window while they were walking down the aisle on the way to their seats, I suppose they might have said something.

Unless I was in the very rear or very front of the aircraft (near their seats) I don't see how they could see me to tell me to turn the camera off.

This was discussed in here a few weeks ago and it seemed that most people agreed that if the device is not emitting RF (camera, walkman, etc.) that there should be no reason to worry about it affecting the aircraft. Is there something about electronic devices that we need to worry about other than RF or it becoming a missle (which would happen even if it was off!)?

Now that I think about it further...I can see why they wouldn't want you to have on headphones as you can't really hear any announcements, etc... Either way, that still doesn't explain the lack of camera use.

Northwest DC-9 safety cards point out that you should not use remote-controlled cars on the aircraft (like most people would put those in carry-on anyway)... The first time I noticed that, I thought of how interesting if would be to be sitting in your seat and all of the sudden a gasoline powered monster truck comes flying down the aisle! Not a good scene.  Wow!

Matt
Canon EOS 7D & 40D -- 100-400mm L IS -- 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II -- 28-135mm IS -- 10-22mm -- 18-55mm EF-S
 
Bluewave 707
Posts: 2793
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:21 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:39 pm

What about scanners to monitor radio transmissions between aircraft and ATC? Not all airlines have UA's channel 9.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
mattbna
Posts: 280
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:24 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:56 pm


Scanners don't transmit so technically it shouldn't be a problem... The problem would be getting on the plane with a scanner and the general public's lack of knowledge of scanners / radios. Chances are they would think that it could transmit and there is no way you'd get it on the plane. In this world of extreme paranoia that we now live in, security issues would probably be a concern as well.


Matt



Canon EOS 7D & 40D -- 100-400mm L IS -- 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II -- 28-135mm IS -- 10-22mm -- 18-55mm EF-S
 
ChickenOrBeef
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:02 pm

Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:03 pm

Hmm, I guess the pilots who let us take pictures in cockpit during flight must be insane ... =P

COB
 
Shamrock1Heavy
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 8:46 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:03 pm

EKFirstClass - Do you belive everything you read? Those articles sound like some alarmist teenage safety queen on a rampge to stop a jelous feeling because she doesnt have a laptop to use on board. There arent any links to back those claims up either, which makes me even more suspiocous

This is not an attack on you EK..

I dont belive any eletronics that you cold take in your carry-on could cause interference...save a EMP bomb or mabye a cd player that transmited subblimal messages to the pilots.

-D
when in hell, we'll do shots at the bar
 
mjszanto
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:08 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:08 pm

A scanner would be most likely to create transmissions. In fact there are billboards that alter the ads, depending on what station your car radio is on, by detecting the emissions of your car radios. For surveying purposes, they used to monitor the transmissions from passing car radios. A radio receiver emits radio waves on roughly the frequency they are tuned to, I believe.
 
mjszanto
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:08 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:10 pm

Here is a good example of how scanners/radios clearly emit radio waves.

http://www.sptimes.com/News/013100/Technology/Your_car_radio_may_be.shtml
 
EKFirstClass
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:47 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:38 pm

EKFirstClass - Do you belive everything you read? Those articles sound like some alarmist teenage safety queen on a rampge to stop a jelous feeling because she doesnt have a laptop to use on board. There arent any links to back those claims up either, which makes me even more suspiocous

This is not an attack on you EK..

I dont belive any eletronics that you cold take in your carry-on could cause interference...save a EMP bomb or mabye a cd player that transmited subblimal messages to the pilots.


Shamrock1Heavy,
I don't believe a word I wrote there! I don't believe the safety reports either! I just invented all this story because indeed I am jealous on all the owners of laptops, Cd-players and so on... Probably this is the answer you expected!

I am working as a cabin crew for more than 4 years now. Not only I have access to more information regarding air safety but I witnessed once few months ago an incident during a flight. I was in the cockpit for few minutes and the auto pilot got disengaged for no reason. As soon as I came back in the cabin I noticed one passenger checking his mobile for a telephone number. His intention was to use the onboard satelite telephone but he didn't know the number which was stored in his mobile. His seat was 6-7 meters from the cockpit door. Coincidence? I don't think so!
You want to be an airline pilot someday? Here's lesson number one: safety in the aircraft is just someone else's experience! Too bad that lots of them died for us to find out how the things should be done...

 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:03 pm

Shamrock, you would be very surprised to see the effect of EM wave coming out of a mobile phone.
Remember mobile phones are built to sent EM power. Make a call with the phone under your TV and you'll understand. Now, on a sensible electronic circuit ... I wouldn't take the chance.
 
USAIRWAYS321
Posts: 1703
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 4:31 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:28 pm

PiedmontGirl: What do you mean by 'FAR?' Also, they've all seen me, so your ex-coworkers (all of my pictures have been tken on US Airways) must be gutless, lol.

Brett
 
EKFirstClass
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:47 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:31 pm

As I promised I am posting few more links with materials about the use of electronic devices during the most critical phases of any flight:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/750893.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2248683.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2324259.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2992973.stm
Also an extras from an article published in November 2002 at www.mobile-review.com:
First alarm was set when cell phones became widely spread and equipment errors became more often but still there were no direct evidences. Till 2000 some of the countries didn't joint to the ban against cell phones but an air crash of the flight number LX 498 Crossair (Saab 340) considerably changed the situation. It was not far from Zurich on the 10. of January 2000. Ten passengers and a whole crew perished in that air crash. For a long time the results of flight recorders decoding were not announced but at last it was a sensation. One of the reasons of the crash was an SMS message, which was received by one of the passengers, and a next cell phone conversation. Navigation monitoring devices showed wrong data at that moment, what led to a crash. Comments of independent experts were not comforting, they said that crew could improve the situation but it also made a mistake and crash was inevitable. Everybody agreed that an airplane fortune depended on crew actions and crew professionalism after electrical systems stopped working. Those countries which hadn't joint to the ban before, hurried on to do it. After that this air crash was forgotten.
Complete link: http://www.mobile-review.com/articles/2002/plane-en.shtml
 
GeneralA
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 6:11 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:31 pm

 
Dtw757
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2003 10:05 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:38 pm

An FAR is a Federal Aviation Regulation. Part 91 Section 21 takes care of portable electronic devices. I beleive cameras fall into the b5 category. I've seen other lists that show cameras are safe for all flight.

Sec. 91.21 Portable electronic devices.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the
operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-
registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate
or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft
has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or
communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier
operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required
by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the
aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other
aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other
operator of the aircraft.
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
bombayhog
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon May 07, 2001 11:34 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:48 am

It seems that there's some amount of disagreement. One thing is that I can't really find any direct mention of the dangers of a digital video camera. This is what I'm especially interested to know about. I would imagine that this would potentially have more impact than a still-photo camera.

If electronic devices can cause uncommanded turns, autopilot disconnects, etc., then why do most airlines allow the use of electronics at any other time during the flight? Wouldn't they run the same risk of causing one of these things?

It seems to me that most of the concerns over electronic devices, while warranted, are largely unproven and inconclusive.
 
dazultra
Posts: 683
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:39 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:51 am

OK, one question, what is a camera gona do to a navigation system? Will it mysteriously disturb signals being sent down cables when u press the shutter button?? OK fair enough when it comes to mobile fones and scanners and stuff that actually use radio waves to work they shud be switched off, but is a game boy really gona bring a plane out of the sky? I think the airlines shud be a bit more realistic when it comes to this.

Daz.
 
wants2fly
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:59 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:57 am

My most recent international flights on EVA Air, the F/A added "Electronic Equipments, including digital camaras, are prohibited during take off and landing."
I did not hear digital camara was prohibited when I flew domastically to MCO few months before that.

Wants2fly

 
wants2fly
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:59 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:59 am

sorry, ment to add I was flying SONG to MCO

wants2fly
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:22 am

USAIRWAYS321:

PiedmontGirl: What do you mean by 'FAR?' Also, they've all seen me, so your ex-coworkers (all of my pictures have been tken on US Airways) must be gutless, lol.

An FAR is a Federal Air Regulation. I thought everyone here would know that. FARs are issued by the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) and have teeth.

They might well be too gutless to tell you to put the camera away.

You can use your camera at the gate and in flight. But not for take-off and landing.

 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:53 am

It seems that there's some amount of disagreement.

Only for those who don’t want to follow safety regulations.

It seems to me that most of the concerns over electronic devices, while warranted, are largely unproven and inconclusive.

Correct. It is a safety oriented method of thinking. It is not up to someone to prove that there is a problem. The airline must prove there will be no problems caused by use of an electronic device. This methodology is just the safest course of action.

Obtaining FAA approval for use of electronic devices is not a simple or inexpensive task. AA spent more than $1 Million obtaining FAA approval for passengers to use cell phones on the ground after landing. AA was required to replace all MD80 front lav smoke detectors [some brands of cell phones causes false alarms from some locations]. AA has still not been able to clear the A300 fleet for this new cell phone policy [interference with intercoms and radios].

If electronic devices can cause uncommanded turns, autopilot disconnects, etc., then why do most airlines allow the use of electronics at any other time during the flight? Wouldn't they run the same risk of causing one of these things?

No! Not the same risks! There are no buildings, trees, mountains, etc. at altitude. The crew has time to figure out what’s going on and recover aircraft control.

One thing is that I can't really find any direct mention of the dangers of a digital video camera. This is what I'm especially interested to know about. I would imagine that this would potentially have more impact than a still-photo camera.

Then I suggest you spend the multiple millions of dollars it will take to find your answers.  Wink/being sarcastic
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:32 am

This question just never dies! And the real answer is always clouded by pilots and arm-chair engineers.

When it comes to design and certification, electronic interference is a very real and important consideration.

Many electronic devices are capable of emmiting electro-magnetic or radio frequency interference. Radio receivers contain oscillators that can act as a transmitter of RF. Portable tape and CD players have similar devices used for bias and timing.

Laptop computers and digital cameras? Don't get me started!

And what kind of interference? It all depends on the proximity of the device to wiring and or apatures (windows) that would allow the signal to find its way to the antenna.

What is the likihood of interference? Very low. What is the possible degree of failure? Catastrophic. Current design and certification standards provide acceptable failure probability and the operation of mystery electronic devices (nobody at the FAA is informed of the potential EMC footprint of every device) presents a very serious threat to the probabilty of failure.

Pilots may or may not witness an EMC interference event that endagers the aircraft in their lifetime. Just as many won't experience the tail falling off. But in certification, I have witnessed the effects of EMI/RFI on aircraft systems and can tell you that not only is it possible, it happens and can have devastating results in the cockpit.

Imagine an coupled ILS approach down to 50 foot minimums where the glideslope signal is distrubed. Unlikely, but with very serious consequences.

 
dash8tech
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 1999 8:40 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:32 am

If we go back to the original post here we may be missing the point...

BombayHog asked about the use of electronic devices during takeoff and landing. This, in my interpretation refers to the first and last phases of flight where they don't want you using cd players, dvd players etc etc becuase you cannot hear potentially important PA's from the FA's as takeoff and landing are the most common times for an 'incident' to occur. Also, having a laptop, cd player, video game out will hamper and evacuation if necessary (thus the need to have seatbacks and tray-tables up also), and the previously mentioned 'missiles' during an aborted takeoff.

At our airline, shortly after the crew chimes the non-smoking switch (during the after takeoff checklist) the FA comes on and says you may now turn on your portable electronic devices...this is often times LONG BEFORE the 10,000 foot chime is heard once that phase of flight has been reached.

So in a nutshell, you've got the standard nothing that "transmits and receives a signal" ban the entire flight and then the "no portable electronic devices during takeoff and landing." The latter having no affect on navigation or communication BUT an affect on potential passenger safety. Afterall, there is communication and navigation going on the entire flight is there not?

Cell-Phones, pagers etc: Hazard to comm/nav.
Electronic Devices: Potential hazard to passenger safety - nothing to do with comm/nav.

Cheers!

 
Twistedwhisper
Posts: 689
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 11:52 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:39 am

I made a really REALLY stupid thing once. I was sitting at the flight from Louisville, KY to Chicago, IL and I was sooooo bored. It felt as if we were never getting there, so, just for fun, I took up my PDA which has a built in GPS and maps, just to see where we were... big mistake! I got a good scolding from the F/A... I now realize that you don't operate your GPS onboard a plane, especially not in the US  Wink/being sarcastic
The captain later wanted to have a word with me, and he said that if it wasn't for 9/11, hardly anyone would have cared... It wouldn't affect the avionics, according to him....

Now, I keep my GPS in my pocket during the whole flight!  Big thumbs up
Read between the lines.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:57 am

Electronic Devices: Potential hazard to passenger safety - nothing to do with comm/nav

Wrong....

Afterall, there is communication and navigation going on the entire flight is there not?


Of course there is. But landing and takeoff are the most critical phases of flight. Navigation and/or communications faults have the greatest effects during these operations.

If you aren't familiar with the certification issues and standards, and the potential of "electronic device" interference, then I can understand why you may think otherwise...all the more reason to NOT breath new life into these common misconceptions.

 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:15 pm

Believe it or not TwistedWhisper, Southwest Airlines allows the usage of GPS devices inflight...Im pretty sure there are other airlines out there that also do, but I cant remember them offhand...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:18 pm

It seems that there's some amount of disagreement.

There is no disagreement between the organisation who who have all the facts i.e. the a/c manufactures and the airworthiness authorities,the answer is yes PED's can effect avionics. It is the people who want to use PED's who think they know better.

The CAA reasearch paper:-

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/389/srg_sys_00002-01-300103.pdf
 
beechcraft
Posts: 731
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:10 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:04 pm

hi all,
i think this has been said before, but there are devices you are allowed to use during cruise and some that aren´t to be used during take off and landing, or some that are not allowed at any time during your stay on board.
The regulations what device not to use and for how long may vary from country to country, or even airline to airline.
So for example you may not use your cell phone (or bluetooth devices) on LH flights AT ALL, while Alitalia (i think) allows it while being on the ground.
This of course causes a lot of trouble and confusion for both, crew and passengers.
There are many reasons for not to use certain devices, may they affect airplane systems or be a hazard to yourself and others.
But, basically if it´s against the law, or airline regulations, don´t use it.
There might be reasons even the captain doesn´t know. And i know that some crews would rather tell you some stupid reason, instead of admitting they don´t know either why your not allowed to use something.
By the way,
One thing i know for sure is that cell phones caused a problem in CRJ´s because they triggered the smoke detection sensors in the cargo compartement which triggers a fire waring in the cockpit, which would make the pilot to use the fire extinguishing procedure....


regards, Denis
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
 
avioniker
Posts: 1099
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 5:38 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:09 am

737Captain: You really need to talk to someone who understands avionics.
Airplay: Thanks for an excellent set of answers
Dash8tech: get back to your basic books

One simple example:
Laptop computers and PDA's up until very recently used a front end data bus regulated at approximately 100 to 133MHz. That is not the processor speed but the speed at which data is transmitted between components on the motherboard. Only a very few laptops are "hardened" to shield against emitting radiation.

All electronic devices emit some level of Intermediate or Radio Frequency Radiation. Unless you wrap them in metal and ground it you can't prevent it.

Aircraft using VOR and ILS to navigate are tuned to frequencies between 108 and 118MHz. The incomming signals are very weak in the microvolt range and are conducted the entire length of the fuselage (usually in the ceiling) to the avionics equipment center normally located aft of and below the flight deck. There are many production breaks with splices and connectors along the length of the cables. Every one of those junctions brings with it the opportunity for a bad connection or bad shield. That's where the spurious radiation may distort the navigation signal. The navigation signal is an audio frequency signal (i.e. 90 & 150 Hz) carried on a radio frequency carrier. As far as pilots leaving their cell phones on; they're in the cockpit, forward of the receivers and coax cables usually with many layers of metal, metalized, and hexelite flooring, wallboard, and just plain space between them and the vulnerable components. That's the single biggest reason why the paperless logs and chart kits aren't going to be a very big problem.

If your computer is operating with a bus speed of 110MHz and the ILS is tuned up to 110.1MHz you may cause enormous problems with the systems which will cause the aircraft to line up off the centerline of the runway.

This has been demonstrated numerous times over the last five years in DC-8, MD-80, 727, 737, 747 and A320 aircraft. There are quite a few websites and articles published outlining the results of the testing.
Tests are ongoing but only a few official detailed results have been published mostly by the British aviation agencies. One test was done in Cincinnati and it resulted in a 727 lining up 4 degrees off centerline with an operating laptop in the back row of the aircraft (1183 disconnect panel is directly overhead).

Glide Slope and DME are in the UHF Spectrum so the likelyhood of an exact frequency or harmonic match is significantly decreased but it has been recorded.

Bottom line: Turn the crap off and don't believe everything you hear from an "expert".
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:58 am

While working on passenger aircraft I´ve personally heard a cellphone signal comming through on the COM systems with a loud buzzing noise.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
avioniker
Posts: 1099
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RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:19 pm

One last link to another forum about this:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114903&goto=nextoldest
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
LMP737
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RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:02 am

Boeing had an interesting article in Aero magazine, issue 10, about interference from electronic devices on commercail aircraft. In 1998 a 747 experenced an uncommanded shallow bank turn. It was discovered that a passengers palmpilot when tuned on caused the anamoly. The crew bought it to the flight deck to see what it would do. When turned on the anomoly returned. When it was turned off the anomoly went away. I suspect that after that the passenger was asked to keep it off.

Boeing purchased the same model palmpilot to do some testing. They discoved that the unit exceeded Boeing aircraft equipment emmision levels by 37dB. Eimmision levels in the frequency range of 150-700 kHz were recorded.

So the next time the crew asks you to turn off all electronic devices please do so.  Smile
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:01 am

It seems to me that most of the concerns over electronic devices, while warranted, are largely unproven and inconclusive.

When you're trying to talk on the radio or the interphone, and you hear that familiar cellphone bleep-bleep over the comms, you would think twice about that ''unproven'' thing being inconclusive.

It's annoying, and if it happened in a critical situation, could have been dangerous.
 
Mr Spaceman
Posts: 2723
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 5:09 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:01 am

Hi guys.

I can't figure out what the grey object is that's sitting on the center console below the throttles. It has a purple name printed on it which spells .......{something?} link.

What is it used for? It looks like a TV remote control.

Does anyone have an answer?


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Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
BigMac
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:10 am

RE: Using Electronics During Takeoff

Sun Feb 01, 2004 6:14 pm

Oooopppsss... I think during the early 90's I used my comcorder a lot during take offs and landings. I mean, I made maybe 10 complete take offs and landings. I think I used a panasonic VHS-C camcorder (was that a format??? I can't remember). I made them on Singapore's Megatops and ALM's MD-82's. I hope it didn't affect anything during the flight...
To fly, or not to fly: that is the question

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