jasonwinn
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777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:19 pm

Hey everyone,
I have heard this repeated a few times at some get togethers with family. Some relatives claimed that the FAA spent a lot of time certifying the 777 because it was the first plane to cross the ocean with only 2 engines.

I found this hard to believe, I thought that the 753 and 767 were crossing oceans from north america well before the 777 came into service.

Could someone clear this up for me?

Thanks!
jason Winn
 
L-188
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:48 pm

Oh, yeah, the 767's where going across long before.

I should note also Alcock and Brown flew the Atlantic in a twin also.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
sccutler
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:00 pm

As noted above, the 777 is hardly the first ETOPS-certified plane.

What was unique about the 777 is that its design and flight test regime were intended from the beginning to yield the ETOPS certification without having to build up a record of operation in certificated non-ETOPS applications.

The 777 was ETOPS certified from the start.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
jhooper
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:08 pm

I thought the 757-300 was built after the 777.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
jasonwinn
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:48 pm

Thanks alot for the info!
Heres a one more, what was the first plane that was ETOPS certified?
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:22 pm

"Heres a one more, what was the first plane that was ETOPS certified?"

I guess that honour goes to the A300........

Cheers, Thomas
 
L-188
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:32 pm

Was it the A300 or the 767?

I wonder because the A300 wasn't optimised for long haul routes, It was a medium route aircraft. The 767 was optimised for longer trips.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Rick767
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:46 pm

The A300 was first, but the 767 soon became the mainstay of ETOPS particularly over the North Atlantic.

Remember that ETOPS applies to routes through Africa, UK/Europe to the Indian Ocean Islands, etc... not just the Atlantic / Pacific crossings.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
broke
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:23 pm

The first extended overwater flights with a twin jet were accomplished by Air France A-300's from JFK to Martinique on a seasonal basis in the late 1970's, before the ETOPS requirement was defined.
 
sushka
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:36 pm

757-300s came out after the 777.

A310s, A300s, 767s, were doing it before the 777.
Pershoyu Spravoyu Litaki!
 
USAFHummer
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:13 am

For some reason I want to say that a TWA 762 flying transatlantic in the early 80's was the first flight under ETOPS...could be wrong though...

Greg
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A/c train
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:16 am

I crossed the pond on a 752 almost 13 years ago. ETOPS approved a/c with HMG and all of course  Wink/being sarcastic.
regards
a/c
 
EMBQA
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:00 am

Don't forget that Gina Yeager and Burt Rutan crossed both oceans, WITHOUT stopping with a twin engine airplane........!!!!!
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
prebennorholm
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:38 am

...and Charles Lindberg crossed the pond on a single engine 77 years ago...

(Not ETOPS certified though, maybe ESOPS???)  Big thumbs up
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
meister808
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:46 am

No, The Spirit of St. Louis was certified on that old standard... AWAP(A Wing and A Prayer)  Wink/being sarcastic

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
gigneil
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:20 am

Don't forget the A330 as well.

N
 
BOSugaDL
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:12 pm

was the 777 the first twin-engine to go across the pacific? I'm talking like LAX-NRT, not LAX/SFO-HNL.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:28 pm

LAX-HNL causes an aircraft to be farther from a suitable alternate than LAX-NRT. But, since you ask, I'm sure the 777 was the first twin with range to fly trans-pacific nonstop.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
Moolies
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:44 am

And lets not forget "Sir" Charles Lindburgh who did it in a single engine plane.
 
desertjets
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:04 am

I am almost certain that the first ETOPS flight for a US major was done by TWA in 1985 or 86 with a 767-200 flying BOS-LHR.

As for transpac stuff. 757s and 767s have been doing mainland to Hawaii (at least the outer islands) flights fairly extensively since the early 90s after DL and UA retired their Super DC-8 fleets. I would think that maybe AC or CP might have used 767s on some transpac routes from YVR and certainly to Hawaii and onward to Austrailia. Though the 777 was probably the first twin to regularly do extensive transpac longhauls.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Slcpilot
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:51 am

"Don't forget that Gina Yeager and Burt Rutan crossed both oceans, WITHOUT stopping with a twin engine airplane........!!!!!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist a few corrections here.

It was JEANA Yeager and DICK Rutan (Burt was the designer) that crossed THREE oceans. Two of these oceans were crossed with a single engine running.

There's a neat story in their book about the controller's disbelief as the plane started it's crossing of the Indian Ocean. The controller, unfamiliar with the plane, didn't think they were serious about crossing the ocean.

SLCPilot

PS> The Voyager team thought it might actually take two or three attempts to complete the goal.
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
gigneil
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Thu Feb 26, 2004 7:50 am

was the 777 the first twin-engine to go across the pacific? I'm talking like LAX-NRT, not LAX/SFO-HNL.

AC flies from YVR to a variety of Asian destinations with the 763.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:02 am

China Southern was the first airline to operate a nonstop transpacific twinjet crossing from East Asia to the USA

American was the first airline to ever utilize ETOPS207 with N777AN (very appropriate aircraft)  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
pilotpip
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:17 am

TWA was the first airline to fly a 767-200 under ETOPS rules in the early 80s. The 777 was the first airliner that was certified for ETOPS from the beginning.

As for the Voyager, you can see it in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum. I don't recall if they fixed the winglets or left them as they were. They were damaged on take off roll. Rumor has it that after Burt Rutan gets the X-prize (his design is the closest to this feat the in the competition) he wants to set the endurance record for a turbojet based on the Voyager.
DMI
 
MD-90
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:42 am

And if you're ever at the EAA Museum in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, they have a mockup of the Voyager, and it's cutaway so you can see the inside ... boy ... you think an 18 hour flight in economy plus on SIA is bad... wow.
 
Slcpilot
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:25 pm

I wonder of the jet endurance record will be done with this plane?

http://www.virginatlanticglobalflyer.com/



BTW, does anybody know the current record? My guess is maybe a B-52 has stayed up maybe 40 hours or so (with refueling)...

SLCPilot

I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
EMBQA
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:00 am

SLCPilot-

Thanks....... I was trying to remember 'WHICH' Rutan did the flight. I guessed wrong. ..........I think the 'Voyager' also holds the time aloft record. Didn't it take them 3-4 days to make the trip...??

[Edited 2004-02-26 22:03:51]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Fri Feb 27, 2004 12:54 pm

SLCPilot, it's a Scaled Composites aircraft, of course it will beat the current record for unrefueled turbine aircraft. I can't think of a single instance when Rutan has failed to follow through on a promise.

Does anyone know what the longest time ever spent airborne is, and where, when and with which aircraft? It's really easy to research, though I knew the answer before asking the question.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
Soulman
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 En

Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:11 pm

Not sure on the exact record IMisspiedmont, but I believe the B-2's that flew non-stop from Whiteman to Afghanistan and return were in the air for something like 35-40 hours.

You'd want to have a strong bladder - or lots of spare room for your empties!

Cheers,

Soulman.
 
L-188
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:33 pm

I can't think of a single instance when Rutan has failed to follow through on a promise.

His Grizzley, which was an attempt to makea bushplane, jumps right to mind.


Bert has talent, do doubt, but he is not a god.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Air1727
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 En

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:02 pm

Trans World was the first carrier to have FAA approved ETOPS exemptions in its opspecs for the 767-200ER; which was also the first ETOPS certified twin engine commercial airliner. The 767-300ER was tailored for ETOPS during production; while the 777 was built with all fixed ETOPS requirements already in place.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
timz
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RE: Longest Airborne

Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:32 am

"Does anyone know what the longest time ever spent airborne is, and where, when and with which aircraft?"

Is it still the C172 in 1958?
 
MD-90
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:54 am

Voyager does not hold the endurance record for time spent aloft. Their trip was 9 days, 3 minutes, and 44 seconds. Design range was 22,778 nm. Eat your hearts out, Boeing and Airbus! Big grin

Timz is right. The Cessna 172 holds the record and was flown by Robert Timm and John Cook. They took off December 4, 1958, and landed February 7, 1959. They were aloft for 64 days, 19 hours, 22 minutes, and 5 seconds. They covered 150,000 miles in that time. They refueled from a speeding car on the runway.

The Grizzly had excellent short takeoff and landing performance. Just because it didn't go into production doesn't mean it was a failure. A lot of his designs were one-off designs that were genuinely experimental. He pretty much single-handedly started the high performance experimental aircraft movement that now sees aircraft like the Lancair IV-P. Not to mention basically inventing the glass-backwards foambuilt. Rutan closed his Rutan Aircraft Factory and got out of the light airplane business because of legal liability issues.


The Grizzly is that big plane in the center
 
cancidas
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:46 am

doesn't the 757 do trans-atlantic runs also?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:17 am

yes
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:20 pm

Darn, I thought I might have posed a 4 day stumper. But then, I did post the question on this site.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
brubiac
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:51 am

Sabena flew almost every day with a A310-300 (OO-SCC) BRU-BOS-BRU back in the '90s
BRU a small airport in a big world.
 
BA
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:33 am

No... that'd be the Spirit of St. Louis

Nope, that would be Alcock and Brown in their Vickers Vimy on June 16, 1919.  Smile

That would be 8 years before Lindbergh's flight on the Ryan NYP "Spirit of St. Louis".





Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
MD-90
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:55 pm

True, but Lindbergh actually landed at a proper aerodrome, and didn't wind up nosing over in a peat bog!

The first scheduled transatlantic service was probably a Pan Am Clipper, I'm assuming the Boeing 314, although it possibly could've been one of the three Martin 130 clippers.
 
Airgypsy
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RE: 777 First Plane To Cross Oceans With Only 2 Engine

Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:45 am

Let us all remember... ETOPS stands for Engines Turn Or Passangers Swim. The more motors the merrier.
Airgypsy

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