N62NA
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Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:37 am

With all the new real time mapping software available to us civilians on the ground (i.e. Flight Explorer, etc), I was wondering if the cockpit crew use the same kind of software to know exactly where they are during a flight.

How DO they know that they're "...99 miles NW of Newark International Airport"?
 
QantasA332
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:42 am

GPS usually...........

Cheers,
QantasA332
 
pilotpip
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:46 am

Or they have a waypoint on their log with that distance from or to a point. THey could also be using DME. But I'm guessing GPS. Keep in mind that you still need to have all appropriate charts for a given flight to be legal. GPS is becoming too much of a crutch.
DMI
 
N62NA
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:01 am

Thanks much for the replies, so far.

So, if I understand correctly, if they're using GPS, they still need to manually plot those coordinates on a map if they wanted to visually represent where they were?
 
QantasA332
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:29 am

So, if I understand correctly, if they're using GPS, they still need to manually plot those coordinates on a map if they wanted to visually represent where they were?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. GPS is basically just an electronic map with your location and other stuff on it, so no plotting on maps to visualize location is necessary...

Is that what you were wondering? If not, please clarify your question and I'll be able to answer it better...

Cheers,
QantasA332
 
N62NA
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:51 am


If not, please clarify your question and I'll be able to answer it better...


Yes, that's the essence of my question. Do the pilots (commercial jet aircraft) get to see their position plotted on an electronic map for them or do they have to plot it themselves?

Sorry for the rather ambiguous original wording to the question!
 
QantasA332
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:02 am

Do the pilots (commercial jet aircraft) get to see their position plotted on an electronic map for them or do they have to plot it themselves?

Yes, with GPS an aircraft's position is plotted on an electronic map, so the pilots don't have to plot themselves.

Cheers,
QantasA332
 
N62NA
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:11 am

Got it. Thanks so much for the answer, QantasA332!
 
QantasA332
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:25 am

You're very welcome.

Cheers,
QantasA332
 
411A
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:26 pm

Having said all this, was deadheading on a DAL flight a few years ago (B757) and the Captain had his enroute chart out, properly folded and all.
The First Officer however, had no chart in sight, and when I asked the Captain, 'why not?'...the reply was...'even IF he had a chart, he STILL wouldn't know where he was."

So very true.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:30 pm

The route, or position can usually be placed on the EHSI on EFAS systems depending on what function the pilot is using. There are quite a few cockpit photos on this site that illustrate that pretty clearly. Also, many GA aircraft with GPS systems may incorporate a MFD that can overlay GPS info with terrain, or in the case of the Garmin 430, it presents a color map on the unit itself. Be aware though, that some earlier systems just presented a Course Deviation Indicator (CDI) and may not have the 'moving map' feature.

Nevertheless, GPS is still not seen by the FAA as a primary source of navigation. In order to use it in IFR flight the unit must be approved and the aircraft must have another type of navigation system like VOR, or NDB capability. In theory, you don't have to plot your course on a chart. You never really do. However, knowing where you are is an important factor in situational awareness. Knowing where you are, without the electronic gizmos, may save your butt some day if those gizmos stop working. I for one, think it is a dying art as a result of the advent of GPS.
DMI
 
411A
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:47 pm

For those that have been flying long overseas routes for a few years will realise that...

GPS very definately IS approved as a primary means of navigation, class one and two, and has been for quite some time.
In the TMA, if a GPS approach is anticipated, the alternate filed must have another type of approach...ie: NDB, VOR, ILS etc.

Seems logical to me.

Mainly the Europeans have been dragged, kicking and screaming into the GPS arena...but now find it is the best thing since sliced bread.

What a surprise.
 
Guest

RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 1:05 pm

Actually, we still use maps in the cockpit, despite INS and GPS systems...
Plotting our route on a map is only done on overwater flights, as a means to follow the progress of the flight, since no ground stations are available.
xxx
We use CDs from Jeppesen to publish all our departure, approach and landing charts required, our runway analysis, but we still have a complete library of enroute high, low and area charts with us.
xxx
Takes only 4 standard Jeppesen binders to cover the world in enroute charts and 2 CDs. Our 747-287s, 20-25 years old airplanes, still use a 3 INS system, but they are updated by 2 GPS in the triple mix mode.
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
FredT
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 1:21 pm

Chiming in with Pilotpip here, I would not call it GPS, although GPS is one source of positional information used to update some navigation systems.

And it is not the end-all, be all. You're still required to cross monitor with the fixed navaids, something made a lot easier with the map displays installed. A nav system might drift off and you better catch that through checking where you have your beacons.

I have my suspicions that this practise is often left aside though... which is somewhat scary.

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
Guest

RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 1:49 pm

"...GPS is becoming too much of a crutch."

Of course, GPS can be misused - it is no different than any other piece of avionics on the flight deck. But there is nothing wrong with using EVERY tool at your disposal to safely conduct a flight. In the nearly 40 years that I've been a pilot I've heard it all - Real pilots don't use autopilots; Real pilots don't use flight directors; Real pilots don't do this or they don't do that. In the words of that great American, Colonel Sherman T. Potter, "Monkey Muffins".

I can't speak for the airline crews out there today, but in our corporate birds with dual or triple FMS installations with moving map displays on the MFDs there's really not a lot of point in having the maps out and following along during the enroute phase of the flight. Yes, they are close at hand and referred to when necessary. What we do have out and follow along with are our computer generated navigation logs.

Jetguy
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 6:59 pm

Note in the following procedure described by a DC-9 and MD-80 pilot how, despite ILS, he sets ALL the navaids: http://www.scandva.org/ops/proc/ils_approach.htm. Good pilots have backups upon backups and can still do the NDB/VOR stuff despite having a GPS. That's the same as Coast Guard officers learning to navigate with a sextant and chronometer. Just in case.

BTW here is an index of all the procedures described if you are interested: http://www.scandva.org/ops/proc/proc.htm.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:15 pm

I described the "next step" of maps in the cockpit in another thread. Replaying it here since it seems pertinent.

The Swedish inventor Håkan Lans devised a system called GP&C (Global positioning & communication). It's used on every ship over 300 tonnes. It may become the standard for aviation. See here if you read Swedish: http://www.uppfinnaren.com/nr2_01/lans.htm. Here is some info on the GP&C hybrid landing system: http://www.gpc.se/landing/index.htm

I once landed in the jumpseat of an SK DC-9 equipped with the system. The pilot showed how he could navigate to the gate in zero viz. The display showed every taxiway, building and so forth. He didn't actually do it since other vehicles were not shown (not equipped with the system). SAS was simply trying the system out. He was just showing off how he could have.

So what is the diff between this and GPS and TCAS? Basically precision. GPS and TCAS become kind of iffy when you are down on the ground since they don't scale down to 5 meters. GP&C allows precisions down to 1-1.5 meters, in other words quite enough to taxi to the gate with really thick fog and no lights.

Also, that kind of system would be installed on ALL vehicles at the airport. Otherwise, how would firemen find a burning jetliner in zero viz for example? Or how would trucks avoid planes in the fog.

Read more about GP&C here: http://www.gpc.se/index.htm

Here is a pertinent article from Flight International: http://www.gpc.se/press/flight5.htm
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
FredT
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:52 am

Called ADS-B now... we're trying it out in my flying club.

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:55 am

your impressions of the system?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
FredT
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:47 pm

I'll have to get back once I've had a chance to mess around with it in person.  Smile

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:05 am

Actually..alot of airliners that have FMS...the FMS prefers DME-DME for position calculation and then backs it up with GPS..not GPS as the primary. This is true for almost every airliner that I know of. Pretty much the only time I have to get a map out is when our FMS fails...that's happened twice. No big deal, just go back to the "normal" way of navigating...I enjoy it that way actually. I've had to pull out a map a few other times...though usually we are just going direct to somewhere and there's not much a need to have one out.

They also make great sun visors!
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Guest

RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:29 am

Denny,
That's not always the case, in fact, it might indicate that there may be a problem with the system setup. On almost all modern FMSes the computer prioritizes the various available position inputs (DME/DME, GPS, INS, IRS, Loran, etc.) to come up with what manufacturers call the "Best Computed Position" via the use of a "Kolsman" filter. Almost all modern FMS/FMC systems (including the Universal UNS-1 in it's various iterations) use GPS as primary position source, but ONLY if a valid and useable GPS signal is available. The FMSes only use the Kolsmann Filter to come up with a BCP when no valid GPS is available.
Jetguy
 
ba299
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:37 am

The FMC on our B777 has the following priority:

on the ground: IRS only
during the flight: DME/DME than GPS than IRS

somebody know about the B767???
 
AAR90
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:37 am

I can't speak for the airline crews out there today, but in our corporate birds with dual or triple FMS installations with moving map displays on the MFDs there's really not a lot of point in having the maps out and following along during the enroute phase of the flight.

The point of having a chart "readily available" is the FAA requires it. FAA assigned POI for AA interprets that to mean the chart must be out of the kit bag/binder. The cost of not pulling out the chart is $10,000.00  Crying so I pull mine out each and every flight. Have not opened one up to actually look at one in more than a year though.  Big thumbs up

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Guest

RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:19 am

AAR90...
You're absolutely correct about that. We keep our high altitude enroute charts out of the book and safely stowed (read: readily available) in the copilot's chart pocket on the R/H cockpit sidewall.

Jetguy
 
Guest

RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:26 pm

For us, the dispatcher prints all SIDs, STARs and APP charts before departure from a Jeppesen CD. We then receive a flight folder containing our CFP flight plan, and a few charts for departure, enroute and destination alternates.
xxx
The planned route is highlited by the dispatcher... In the flight deck we find our "hard copies" of Jeppesen enroute charts, HI and LO, and area charts. A plotting chart for the South/Central Atlantic is provided.
xxx
As an example for the route Buenos Aires to Madrid, we get prints of:
- Buenos Aires departures and return plates.
- Arrivals and approach plates for Porto Alegre, Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Recife (or Fortaleza).
- Arrivals and approach plates for Dakar, Sal, Las Palmas, Madrid and Barcelona.
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
ba299
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:59 am

Hey skipper,
do you know the name of that jeppesen sys.??
 
Guest

RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:46 am

Ba299...
I'm sure that he's probably talking about JeppView. We've been using it for years. It's a great tool.
Jetguy
 
airplay
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:33 pm

Actually..alot of airliners that have FMS...the FMS prefers DME-DME for position calculation and then backs it up with GPS..not GPS as the primary.

Absolutely every FMS system I know of uses GPS exclusively for position resolution unless the GPS sensor is flagged. This of course applies to TSO c129A GPS sensors so if you have an old dinosaur of and FMS, this may not apply.

GPS very definately IS approved as a primary means of navigation, class one and two, and has been for quite some time.


Gotta be careful with the "very definately IS" statement there. Not ALL GPS systems are approved for primary means navigation. The GPS must have RAIM and FDE prediction capability among other technical requirments. As a matter of fact, outside of FMS systems very few GPS receivers meet the primary means criteria.

The vast majority of GPS systems, GNS 430 included meet the criteria for "supplementary" means navigation only. And of course there are still no "sole means" GPS systems and none on the horizon.

I wonder why nobody has mentioned electronic flight bags in this discussion? Electronic flight bags are the modern manifestation of the knee board. They are typically Windows based mini-computers capable of running Jep-view and other software.

The CMC CT-1000 is the model I've been involved with the most to date.

http://www.cmcelectronics.ca/En/Prodserv/Commav/commav_fds_efb_ct1000g_en.html

Most civil airworthiness authorities won't let you connect the thing to GPS in the air yet for various reasons, but it may come down the road.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:01 pm

Airplay- .most airliners use DME/DME as primary with GPS as a backup. Our's poops a brick if it loses VOR reception...but is cooler than a polar bears toenails if it loses GPS. Only 2 of NW's 747-400's have GPS capability..and they are fine without it. The rest just have DME/DME for auto tune to help the triple IRS.



I'll refer you back to this post:

"The FMC on our B777 has the following priority:

on the ground: IRS only
during the flight: DME/DME than GPS than IRS"




Please don't group all FMS's into one catagory...many im sure do like GPS as the primary.... alot of airliners just dont. I'm not telling you that you are wrong... nor should you be telling me that what I am saying is not factual- I know my airplane. Trying to group all FMS's into one catagory is like saying that all airplanes are Boeings.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
ba299
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:27 pm

XFSUgimpLB41X

I talked about the 777 in the BA fleet. May be that other airlines use other system.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:31 pm

Ba299-

Sorry if that was unclear- I was referring Airplay back to your post.  Smile
Chicks dig winglets.
 
L-188
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:42 pm

You realize that there have never been maps in cockpits.

We call them "Charts"  Big grin

[Edited 2004-03-08 13:53:31]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ba299
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:50 pm

XFSUgimpLB41X

It was clear but. I was referring to our 777 may be other airlines use other sys
 
airplay
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RE: Maps In The Cockpit

Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:16 pm

Airplay- .most airliners use DME/DME as primary with GPS as a backup. Our's poops a brick if it loses VOR reception...but is cooler than a polar bears toenails if it loses GPS

Kind of a contradictory statement there. It uses DME/DME with GPS backup, but poops a brick if you lose a VOR?

Is there a chance (a very good one in my opinion) that your FMS uses a non-TSO'd GPS receiver? Because I don't group all FMSs into one category. I stated:

"This of course applies to TSO c129A GPS sensors so if you have an old dinosaur of and FMS, this may not apply."

I'm guessing (with a great deal of certainty that you have one of these "dinosaur" FMSs...

Nobody "needs" a GPS. Especially in IRS equipped airplanes so it doesn't surprise me that you don't have TSO's GPS receivers....

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