SpeedbirdHeavy
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747-400 Start-up Procedure

Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:14 am

I had heard that 2 engines could be started at the same time on a 747-400.

Is that standard procedure? If so, which ones are usually started first?

Are there any other aircraft that can start more than one engine at the same time?
China Airlines...Come fry with us!
 
theflcowboy
Posts: 357
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:22 am

You might want to check out Tech/Ops for that one.
I think thats in there somewhere. Happy Hunting.

MD

[Edited 2004-03-22 22:22:41]
A318, A320, A332, A333, B1900, B722, B732, B733, B734, B735, B737, B738, B772, CR1, CR2, CR7, CR9, MD80, MD81, MD82, MD8
 
ANA777Master
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:14 am

4-3-2-1. Can run taxi on outboards only.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:51 am

I believe some airlines have an autostart feature that allows two to be started at a time. Our 747-400s are manually started and therefore have to be carefully monitored so we do it one at a time in the 4-1-2-3 sequence. Every airline does it differently.
 
miles_mechanic
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:49 am

This is a bit different, but I know that you can start both engines on a 1900 at the same time, as one gentleman from Israel asked the instructor on our maintenance course if it was possible. The instructor said yeah it is possible, but why would you want to, he said well you never know when you will have to get out of some place in a hurry. We kind of laughed at that, but he was serious.

Regards

Miles
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:10 pm

The 777 can start both engines at once... Lots of air from the APU does the trick! I'm not sure all airlines that fly the 777 use this feature to it's fullest potential. It seems like last time I was on a UA777, they started them independently, but then again, i could be wrong. lol
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:52 pm

NW starts 2 and once.... call for 3 and 4....then once those are going... 1 and 2....

Rarely do delayed engine starts b/c they are so heavy....need to have all four going just to get the thing moving.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:36 pm

Fanoftristars,

As far as I know, the 777s with GE90s need to start them independantly, because the engines are just a little too large to start both at once, whereas the Rollers and the Pratts can.
 
SQ325
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:19 am

LHs B744 have thze Autostart feature so they start 3&4 at the same time and 2&1 afterwards!
I was wondering about the same thing 1 1/2 years!
 
Guest

RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:32 am

Funny - IHMO - starting 2 engines at once...
xxx
In my dinosaurus sevenfortysevensis-twohundred... we do one at the time...
When we start (one) engine, we monitor for potential hot starts, hung starts.
And we are three guys up-front, doing that carefully...
xxx
Now you start two engines together... ok...
I assume with the two guys, the left guy monitors one, the other does the other.
Great advances in technology, really. Fry them' engines... two together.
Ok, I am an old fashion guy.
xxx
Happy contrails  Big grin
(s) Skipper
 
Bellerophon
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747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:27 am

SpeedbirdHeavy

It is standard procedure to auto-start two engines, at the same time, on the B747-400 in my airline, provided you are below 6,000 ft AMSL and the OAT is below +30°C.

Usually 3 & 4 are started together first, and then 1 & 2. All four engines must be running before the aircraft moves under its own power, delayed starts during taxy-out are not allowed.

The auto-start system monitors automatically all the parameters that B747-100 crews monitored manually, as well as introducing the fuel at the correct point in the start cycle.

It deals with hot starts, hung starts, failed starts, starter motor failures and will abort the start if necessary, and try a re-start, using the other ignitors if required.

It does this flawlessly, two engines at a time, just about every time.

However, if the auto-start system is not working, or if a manual start is required as at MEX, then we only start one engine at a time, normally 4-1-2-3, and have to monitor, time and control all aspects of the start cycle ourselves.

Regards

Bellerophon
 
Guest

RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:44 am

Sorry, but I do not trust these auto-systems at all. They happen to... fail.
If autoland is so reliable, why do I have to demonstrate ability to land the aircraft...?
An airplane engine is an expensive item... fry one, the repairs are more than my yearly pay...
xxx
Yesterday, one of our 747s landed with auto-brakes on medium.
Blew 7 tires... hooray for automatic systems.
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper


 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:25 am

Skipper, I would not have taken you for a closet luddite  Big grin

As for automatics, every generation of engineers since the 60s has heard "this will be the last military aircraft with a pilot" at some point, and I'm sure the same can be said for airliners. We'll just see shall we...

But you can always look on the bright side. If FADEC and autostart fry an engine, you can blame the computer.

[Edited 2004-03-24 18:26:12]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Bellerophon
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:44 am

B747skipper

…Sorry, but I do not trust these auto-systems at all. They happen to... fail…

Yes, occasionally they do fail. As do human beings, only they fail more frequently.

…An airplane engine is an expensive item... fry one, the repairs are more than my yearly pay...

If I’d had a choice I would have stayed on an aircraft with a F/E, but that wasn’t an option, so I went to the B747-400.

As a big fan of F/Es, it doesn’t give me any pleasure to say this, but a modern auto-start system will detect a hot start earlier than a F/E, and abort the start sooner and at a lower peak temperature. The lower – not higher – maintenance costs that result from their use is a major selling point to airline management.

I think your airline may be getting the B747-400, so maybe you’ll get to like auto-start once you’ve tried the system.

I doubt you will like the loss of the F/E!

Regards

Bellerophon
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:46 am

B747Skipper,

The logic with the autostarts is that if the system fails, there will be an EICAS message telling you that the system has failed. The system runs self-tests to determine whether it is failed or not, so the first sign of failure will not be the EGT exceeding through the roof! The system monitors for everything including hot starts, hung starts, no N1 rotation, no fuel flow etc... everything that you would normally observe during a manual start. Following something like a hot start it will even automatically take out the fuel, motor the engine, wait for EGT to fall below limits and try again a second time, but giving up if it encounters a hot start again instead of trying and trying and trying (like it does for an inflight start). The only thing we have to do is to remember to return the Fuel Cutoff switches to Cutoff if the autostart shuts the engine down a second time.

Obviously it is possible that the autostart system happens to fail at the exact moment you get rapidly rising EGT, but the chances of that are probably as slim as a double engine failure on a twin, but we obviously also monitor the start rather than stare out the window chatting!
 
SpeedbirdHeavy
Topic Author
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:51 pm

This is getting really interesting! I didn't expect all this info when I wrote my original posting, but this information is fascinating.

I remember watching a documentary on Air Force One and in one of the segments, the Commander called for 2 engines to be started at the same time. Now AF1 is a 747-200, with -400 engines. So, I'm assuming that the type of engine dictates if two can be started at the same time?

Also, I knew what a hot start was at one point in time, but I've now forgotten. Can someone refresh my memory? Also, what is a hung start? Is N1 rotation the fan blade outside the engine, or inside it?
China Airlines...Come fry with us!
 
Guest

RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:08 pm

Dear Bellerophon -
xxx
You know I am an adept of airplanes with a F/E as well... But we are getting 747-400s now...
The whole flight operations department was against it.
I fought for 2 years to have them buy older 747-300s instead, fraction of price.
We do not need that little "extra" in range...
And, with the sectors they fly, they need a minimum crew of 3 anyway.
xxx
I got my official notice anyway, after the last 747-200 goes, I hang my hat.
That gives me, maybe 2 years, maximum... then... the beach.
xxx
I wish they had designed that 747-500... (I am getting nasty now)
You know that one was 2 crew as well, but a captain and flight engineer instead.
xxx
Happy contrails  Big grin
(s) Skipper

 
SpeedbirdHeavy
Topic Author
Posts: 414
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:48 pm

I got my official notice anyway, after the last 747-200 goes, I hang my hat.
That gives me, maybe 2 years, maximum... then... the beach.


Why aren't you going to the 400's?
China Airlines...Come fry with us!
 
Guest

RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:15 pm

Well, SpeedbirdHeavy -
xxx
Company policy, which is that a pilot over age 60 (I am 60 + 5 months) will not be retrained to another aircraft requiring a different endorsement (type rating) - And I fully agree with that policy, you do not teach an old dog new tricks.
xxx
I flew the 747-400, some 2 or 3 years in the past, courtesy of Boeing sales department, and did some touch and goes at Moses Lake, WA with it. The 400 was no different to handle than a 200 or 300, but I was lost with the switches, and the SOPs as required by a crew of two rather than three.
xxx
We have had some problems with transitioning some of our pilots from the 747 to the A340 a few years ago, some were old dogs like me, therefore, we have that policy. I happen to hold a 737 endorsement (just obtained in an all-simulator program), I have never flown that aircraft type, except one ferry/positioning flight from POA to AEP... and I sat in the RH seat... although I teach 737 performance in classrooms, and I sometimes teach "remedial instrument flying" to new hires in 737 simulators... need all my patience for that.
xxx
Flying the 737 as captain or even first officer does not attract me at all, even though my salary would remain the same. I do not like their crew schedules and route structure. You see, I rather leave that to the young ones, leave this old fart ranting in Tech.Ops instead...!
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
AJ
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:12 pm

From memory guys the autostart does ignore one important factor...oil pressure. This was left out due to the fact that oil pressure is not required until N2 or N3 stabilises, by which stage the start sequence is over. Tea and biscuits with the Chief Pilot would result from not noticing that there is no oil pressure rise at that point!

In addition the autostart system may not motor the engine sufficiently an a tailwind to stabilise airflow through the core. Our company recommends manual starts above 10-15kts of tailwind.

As one adjusts to autostarts and the automation of the -400, there are also gotchas. One in this area is that for an autostart the engine start switch is pulled and the fuel control switch set to run to initiate start. Do this on a manual start and the result may not be so nice!
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:39 pm

Yes I forgot to mention. Autostart does not monitor oil pressure or temperature. Normally once the start switch is moved to "Start", the oil indications come up and only once we see an indication (Even if it is zero) we select the fuel control switches to 'RUN'. Silly thing is, we cannot start the engines if the oil temperature is below -20 degrees celcius, but until we select 'Start' on the start switches, we cannot see what the oil temperature is!

There is no limitation on the autostart with tailwind on the 777, I guess because the APU is sufficiently powerful to motor the engine.
 
musang
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RE: 747-400 Start-up Procedure

Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:43 am

Speedbirdheavy - I've not flown 747s, but would assume the APU air supply volume determines the ability to do simultaneous starts.

I was once told by a 744 former captain that he started all four simultaneously just to see if it would work. It did, but took longer.

Was he talking out of his trousers?

Regards - Musang

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