DeskPilot
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Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:24 pm

Well, after reading this forums for the past 12 months, I've finally joined and here's my first post. I'm a Sim guy until sometime in the future I can afford the time and money to start training for a PPL.

I flew from Melbourne (YMML) to Sydney (YSSY) yesterday morning with work on QF404 (767-3XXX series). The flight got to Sydney in record time, but we went into a hold due to fog at Sydney airport. After about 15 - 30 mins on hold, we had to return to Melb as other possible diverts were full - mostly international flights. Reports from my colleagues from Syd was the fog was pretty thick in the CBD. Full credit for Qantas for the service  Smile

My question is, what are the conditions for an autoland (CAT III ???). Does the Qantas 767-3XX series support this or Sydney Airport for that matter ?

Thanks in advance.

By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
tsentsan
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:23 pm

IIRC YSSY is only Cat I certified, as are all other airports in Australia..

I'm pretty sure the 767 is Cat 3 certified, whether cat 3C or not I'm not sure.
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bragi
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:35 pm

I think Cat IIIc is only necessary and practical for long-haul flights. 0/0 conditions are very rare, and it´s expensive maintaining a fleet of aircraft certified for that kind of approach.

Is it even possible to taxi after landing if there is no visibility? Big grin
Muhammad Ali: "Superman don’t need no seat belt." Flight Attendant: "Superman don’t need no airplane, either."
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:46 pm

The 767 as it came from Boeing is CatIII. However, it is up to the airline to maintain the certification. I am almost positive QF has done that.

The biggest issue is if an airport is CatIII. Just because it has an operable ILS does not mean it is capable of CatIII operations. For an airport to be certified to the lowest minimums there are all sorts of criteria the runways have to meet. If you look at any Jepp charts you will notice there are actually very few Cat III approaches. Certainly CatII is much more prevalent, but even then the numbers are limited. The whole Cat II/III issue has two sides, the aircraft and the airport.

To correct Braqi, there is no bearing on long haul flights being CatIII vs. short haul. In either cast alternate fuel still has to be carried and the cost of maintaining Cat II/III in new generation aircraft is really minimal.
Fly fast, live slow
 
rendezvous
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:11 am

I was of the understanding that 16L/34R was catII?
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:47 am

On that day they seemed to be diverting most traffic from Sydney to alternatives. Included were international flights too from what I understand.

I thought that ILS approaches were to allow landings in bad weather. I'm just not sure when they're used and when conditions are too bad to even consider an ILS approach. Granted Bragi, if it is a real 'pea soup' fog, you'd need guidance (a "follow me" car/truck) to guide you to the gate.

Can any pilots provide some info on when ILS is used, types and limitations ?
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
fspilot747
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:01 am

AFAIK, ILS typically have limitations of 200ft AGL or more. Those are the typical minimums. 0/0 vis wouldn't really work for an ILS.


FSP
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:46 am

A Cat I ILS is normally good for a RVR of 2400', however with applicable training US airlines can reduce the RVR to 1800' (600M). The visibility minimums can also be increase based on other factors such as signal strength, approach lighting and other factors.

A Cat II ILS is normally good for RVR of 1200', I don't have any Jepps in front of me, so I can't remember how many meters that translates to.

Cat III ILS is normally below the RVR required for CAT II. There are really very few CAT III approaches in the world.

Just a note, the controlling limitation to conduct an ILS approach is visibility not ceiling. For a Non precision approach, both ceiling and visibility are controlling.

Again, as it has been pointed out, once you're on the ground, you do need a follow me to get you to the gate, if in fact it is really WOXOF.

Fly fast, live slow
 
Guest

RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:08 am

One of these FAQ...
Research my explanations in Tech.Ops. - was about a year ago.
Too tired to check tonight.
xxx
The 747-200 or 300 can be certificated for Cat.IIIa.
Some are equipped for Cat.IIIb, but never were certificated as such.
L-1011s AFAIK were capable of Cat.IIIb...
xxx
Note -
Cat.I and Cat.II, both RVR and ceiling are minimums.
Cat.IIIa and III.b is RVR only, no DH...
xxx
There are no facilities (nor aircraft) certificated for Cat.IIIc (0/0 landings).
Tridents and Caravelles were tested to Cat.IIIc minimums in the late 1960s...
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper

 
AJ
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:51 pm

Qantas Boeing 767s are approved for Category III approaches when all required systems are serviceable and the runway is CAT III able.

All runways at Sydney are Cat I only. Some of the runways are autoland approved and are used for recency autolands only.
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Sat Apr 10, 2004 7:14 pm

Thanks AJ.

I gathered from all the replies that although the 767 may support 0/0 landings, Sydney airport probably didn't.

Regards,

DeskPilot
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
musang
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:42 pm

Philsquares - what part of the world are you in?!

I fly all over Europe (in 737s, and before that RJ 100s) and without getting some manuals out, I would say airfields withOUT Cat III are definitely the minority. The 737 is Cat IIIa, the RJ 100 is Cat IIIb.

Regards - Musang
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:05 pm

I work for SQ. Here is the list of our airports in Europe that are CATIII.

VIE,BRU,CPH,CDG,ORY,CGN,DUS,FRA,MUN,DUB,MXP,AMS,MAD,GEN,ZUR,LHR,
LGW,MAN.

I think you will find for a -400 the list of suitable CATIII a/b airports is pretty restrictive.
Getting back to the topic at hand, there is no Airport in Austalia that is approved for CATII/III operations for out -400's.

So Musang, I guess I don't know what your point is. But, I am willing to listen.

No matter what part of the world I'm in?! to quote
Fly fast, live slow
 
musang
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:48 am

Hi Philsquares. I lived in SIN for 8 years (before I started flying).

There wasn't really a point to my comment.

I guess we've established that in my geographically limited airline flying career, i.e. Europe, few of the major airports don't have Cat III. Your experience is evidently global, so i'm inferring that on a worldwide basis, the ratio of Cat III vs. Not Cat III airports is rather different. Hence my wondering what part of the world you were in.

No point, just an observation.

I guess Europe goes lo vis more than other regions, so Cat III availablity is more widespread.

Selamat Jalan - Musang.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:24 am

To make a general statement, am I right to say that they diverted because the visibility over the airfield was lower than the Cat I certified visibility minimums?

I thought Sydney sees seasonal storms as well with heavy rain... why don't they up the ILS capabilities?
Boeing747 万岁!
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:27 pm

I assume that's why we diverted - outside limits for whatever Cat was applicable (our aircraft and runway in operation).

I think we were located north of Sydney, so that would be approach to either 16L or 16R. I don't have charts so I don't know what ILS categories apply.

From the info I was directed to by B747Skipper, the Runway Visual Range (RVR) would be 700 or 600 feet for CatIIIa and b respectively. This is assuming that CatIIIc didn't apply, since we would have landed at Sydney.
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
twr75
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:45 pm

Both Sydney (16R) and Melbourne (16 & 27) have runways with Cat II approach lighting but only Cat I ILSs.

[Edited 2004-04-11 14:46:46]
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danialanwar
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:58 am

we had to return to Melb as other possible diverts were full - mostly international flights
Exactly what are divert apts for international flights to Sydney? Thought that they'd be mostly Brisbane and Melbourne given the large share of wide-bodies international flights into Sydney.
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rducky
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:08 am

I'm surprised no one mention that YSSY, doesn't have a CAT-III approach, they don't even have a CAT-II, their ILS CAT-I. That is probably the main reason for diverting.

3 thing are needed, the airport has to be certified, the pilots must also be certified, as well as the aircraft. I should think Qantas Pilot, and their aircraft have the capabilities, but if the airport doesn't support the procedure, well hang out and up for the best, or divert and hang out and wait for the weather to clear.

Rducky
Up Up and Away
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:23 am

Rducky, Twr75 in post 16 confirmed ".....with Cat II approach lighting but only Cat I ILSs....".

Yes, we "hung" around for about 15 - 30 mins for things to clear, but they didn't
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
FRASYD
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:44 pm

RWY 16R/34L is only CAT1 certified. However, SACL is thinking about an upgrade. As far as I know they won't upgrade it as the lighting of the main runway is just now being renewed an it is not being upgraded.

The foggy days in SYD just aren't enough. Funny to see what would happen to ports like FRA if they were only CAT1...  Smile
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:54 am

Another foggy morning last week too at Syd. Same deal I suppose.

However, you're right FRASYD but I guess there'd also be the expense of continous training of pilots in CATIII operation to consider.
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
FRASYD
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RE: Autoland In Fog At Sydney (YSSY)

Sun Apr 25, 2004 12:52 am

Although that's not the cost for SACL. If you need it, you have to train your pilots, in SYD you just don't...

If it's foggy, just use YSBK..  Smile kiddin.

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