quickmover
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What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:31 am

In the photo section there is a picture of a heavy smoking 707 and it's called a water burner. Is that just an expression or is water used in some way for coolant?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:34 am

Some older aircraft engines injected water into the compressed airflow to increase the flow mass therein, which provided more thrust for takeoff.





[Edited 2004-04-23 22:04:13]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
quickmover
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:35 am

Thank you for your help.
 
elwood64151
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:39 am

You'll see these aircraft referred to as "Water Wagons," as well.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
LVZXV
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:43 am



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Photo © Charlie Atterbury



Does this answer your question?!

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
PanAm747
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:51 am

Thrust levels on early jets was very poor. There were certain times that these original jets simply didn't have enough thrust to take off fully loaded on certain runways at certain times.

As I understand it, water injection "fooled" the engine into thinking it was receiving more air, and therefore would provide more thrust. However, as you can see in that picture, the results were an environmental nightmare!!

As engine technology came about, more than sufficient power was able to be provided for virtually every situation, so water injection became unnecessary. I am sure Mother Earth is happy about that one!!
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
quickmover
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:54 am

You would think that adding water would make steam instead of smoke. That picture is unreal. I bet they were loud too.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:01 am

You would think that adding water would make steam instead of smoke.

...it does.

The increased volume of smoke you see is (among other factors) a direct result of the increased mass [to the thrust flow] that the injected water provides






[Edited 2004-04-23 22:02:02]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
BA
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:16 am

It isn't pure water either. It's water mixed with ammonia (NH3).

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
CalPilot17
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:16 am

Does it really hurt the environment more or does it only appear so because of the increase in volume of the exhaust.
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411A
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:37 am

Actually...
BA is completely WRONG about the ammonia (NH3).
These aircraft (which I operted as a Captain) used de-mineralized water ONLY...nothing else...except jet fuel, of course.

Now, having said this...no telling just what they got up to in Lebanon Insane

Some have a few very strange ideas and/or mis-information.
 
greasespot
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:41 am

I know that the HS748 uses a water methanol mixture. I personally do know about ammonia but I suspect that 411A is right.

Greasespot
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
pr1268
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:51 am

Just curious: For what duration of time was the a/c capable of injecting water into the engines? How long did the crew usually keep injecting water after t/o?
The only time an aircraft has too much fuel is when it is on fire.
 
411A
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:49 pm

Pr1268,
The water, which was contained in tanks in the wing fillet area, flowed for approximately 2 and one half minutes, and the tank(s) capacity was totally used up during this period.
This allowed the aircraft to reach flap retraction height, and complete flap retraction...usually.
 
justplanesmart
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:00 pm

I bet they were loud too.

Yes, they were.
"So many planes; so little time..."
 
airplay
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:55 pm

Actually...
BA is completely WRONG about the ammonia (NH3).
These aircraft (which I operted as a Captain) used de-mineralized water ONLY...nothing else...except jet fuel, of course


Wrong again. Its a water-methanol mixture. This keeps the contents of the tanks from freezing solid at altitude.

Evironmental nightmare? I don't think "mother earth" minds some water vapour ejecting from the engine. I'd say she is more concerned about the tons of jet fuel....
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sun Apr 25, 2004 12:28 am

Hi guys.

> 411A stated that he used to fly these aircraft (Boeing707's) as a Captain, so when he says they used demineralized water ONLY and nothing else, Im sure he knows what he's talking about.

Here's a neat photo of a B-52 Bomber being loaded up with DEMINERALIZED WATER back in 1985. Look at the red label on the back of the tanker truck.

The original Boeing 707's had four JT3D turbofans, and a B-52 has eight TF-33-P-3/103 engines. I don't know how similar these engines are, but they are both built by Pratt & Whitney.


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PS, Welcome aboard Greasespot. Big grin


Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sun Apr 25, 2004 12:53 am

Hi guys.

I just did a google search and found out that a B-52's eight PW TF-33 engines produce 17,000 pounds of thrust each which is the same amount of thrust produced by the four PW JT3D-1 engines on the Boeing 707-120B.

So perhaps the Boeing-707 and the Boeing B-52 engines are quite similar.


Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
chdmcmanus
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sun Apr 25, 2004 1:09 am

The TF-33 is the mil version of the JT3-D, Just as the J-57 was the JT3.

As for water injection, please see;

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/80343/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/35649/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/30495/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/17911/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/17879/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/11576/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/8554/6/
or
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/2788/

Some very good info in these posts, but be careful, there were different mixtures and methods depending on location and manufacture, which seems to cause a lot of consternation in these threads.

Hope it helps

ChD






[Edited 2004-04-24 18:11:37]
"Never trust a clean Crew Chief"
 
airplay
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sun Apr 25, 2004 2:23 am

411A stated that he used to fly these aircraft (Boeing707's) as a Captain, so when he says they used demineralized water ONLY and nothing else, Im sure he knows what he's talking about.

Yah...you would think so. But don't be so quick to take a pilot's word for techical matters over people who actually filled the tanks....

You have to remember that there is often no single answer for technical questions, and procedures tend to evolve over time.

[Edited 2004-04-24 19:25:33]
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sun Apr 25, 2004 2:58 am

Hi guys.

>> Chdmcmanus, Thanks for explaining that the P&W TF-33 is the military version of the P&W JT3D.

>> Airplay, I understand what you're saying about how there's often not a single answer to technical questions. I agree. Big grin

One of the first replys about water injection in the threads linked above is by Musang (who is an airline Captain), and he explains that a water/methanol mixture is used and is referred to as Water Meth, which has anti-icing qualities and is effectively more fuel.

PS, Airplay, How's the weather today in Winnipeg? I used to live in Polo Park on a street called Ashburn just South of Sergent Ave. I could walk to Blue Bomber Stadium in about 15 minutes. Big grin


Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
411A
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sun Apr 25, 2004 12:55 pm

Airplay being just slightly mis-informed about the de-mineralized water used in early models of the B707.
Methanol was never required as, indicated previously, the water was totally exhausted from the tanks during each takeoff, hence it did not need methanol to keep from freezing at altitude.
Other jet aircraft were different...but not the 707.

There are those that can suppose (because they never have been there) and then there are those that HAVE been there...and done that.
Factual information generally comes from the latter group.
 
airplay
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:57 pm

Gee, sorry 411A. I didn't realize that you flew every 707 in the world for every airline. Sorry to question a pilot "god". Been there? Sounds like you've been "everywhere"....

Water methanol was in fact used in 707s. Not all, and apparently not the ones 411A flew. If I remember correctly, Boeing had to write a service bulletin to allow the practice which included increased inspections to address the increased incidence of corrosion associated with the water methanol mixture.

I don't have the 707 manuals here at home, but I'll try to hunt some proof down on monday at work. I'll really have to blow the dust off those 707 fiche reels...

 Smile

I do concede I was wrong in implying that water-methanol was the primary substance used. It appears that pure demineralized water was the default. It just goes to show you that there is rarely one single answer for any question about airplanes...
 
timz
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:37 am

"Water methanol was in fact used in 707s. Not all..."

Which?
 
411A
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:41 am

These early 707's with JT3C engines that used de-mineralized water for thrust augmentation were operated along side DC6's and Convair 440's that used ADI.
The service bulletin was initiated so that the 707 aircraft could be operated with ADI if no demineralized water was available or, had been incorrectly filled with ADI fluid...ground crews being what they usually are...inattentive.
Usually, the 707 aircraft that used ADI instead of de-mineralized water required a compressor wash at the minimum, as the compressor blades were subject to severe corrosion IF a water/methanol mix was used.

READ the manual...when all else fails.
Something most folks fail to do...until its too late.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:03 am

Ah...the wonderful world of aviation. Ask one question get 40 answers and the truth lies somewhere in between!

One last comment though. I don't think its all that fair to say "ground crews being what they usually are...inattentive." Let's remember for a second, the leading cause of aircraft accidents. Nuttin' to do with "ground crews"....


 
TimT
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:09 pm

All that smoke!! There was a service bulletin from P&W to install a set of new and improved burner cans- the new cans were more efficient and created lots less smoke. The water made the exhaust cooler and allowed more throttle at a given EGT. More throttle= more thrust.
 
411A
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RE: What Is A "water Burner"

Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:53 am

The water did not directly make the exhaust 'cooler'.
The water injection (thrust augmentation) increased the mass flow thru the engine, so that additional fuel could be added (higher EPR) without exceeding EGT limitations.

Worked very well, but of course was phased out when better engines came along.
When the water stopped flowing (after approximately 2.5 minutes), the thrust reduction was very noticable, and considerable nose down trim was required to keep the aircraft acceleration (toward the desired climb speed) in progress, without descending.
This could be quite challanging on hot days, at heavier weights.

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