anxebla
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A320, Now With 180' Etops

Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:59 am

Airbus has received approval from European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) for 180-minute extended range twin engine operations (ETOPS) with its A319, A320 and A321 single aisle aircraft including corporate jet versions.
Airbus is also in the process of obtaining approval for the lastest family member
the A318.
According to Airbus, the A320 family has now accumulated over 31 million flight hours since entry into service and more than 10 years worth of 120-minute ETOPS operations worldwide.
This is a good notice for Airbus and CFM/IAE.


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prebennorholm
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:14 am

Anxebla, do you know - was this approval given simultaneously for CFM56 and V2500 powered 320s?
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backfire
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:27 am

As far as I'm aware, it's for both engine variants.
 
N6376M
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:56 am

whatever happend to 4 engines 4 long haul?
 
USAFHummer
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:13 am

What route could an A318 possibly fly on a regular basis that would require 180-minute ETOPS??? That seems a bit ridiculous to me...

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MYT332
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:05 pm

whatever happend to 4 engines 4 long haul?

What are you on about, thats Virgins slogan not airbus's. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot if it were, think about the A330, how many engines? lol
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:50 am

whatever happend to 4 engines 4 long haul?

It took its place with most other relics of bygone eras





What route could an A318 possibly fly on a regular basis that would require 180-minute ETOPS???

West Coast USA-Hawaii





What are you on about, thats Virgins slogan not airbus's.

Wrong-- it was Airbus', adopted by virgin


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artsyman
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:17 am

I thought that the etops certification comes related to the airlines maintenance practices along with the aircraft types. The rules on what mechanics do what, and when etc with etops go beyond just clearing Airbus for etops 180

J
 
Staffan
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:43 am

It still depends on the airline, but I'd guess that they now have the possibility to certify for 180 instead of 120 as previously.

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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Fri Apr 30, 2004 4:23 am

ConcordeBoy's right, I've seen that slogan in A TV ads (4 engines 4 long haul).
 
anxebla
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:04 am

...and it's a very intelligent slogan  Smile
Prebennorholm, yes, EASA gave approval for CFM56 and V2500
This is a very good notice (good news are given in sales Big grin) and it indicates that Airbus and CFM/IAE go for the right way.
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TS-IOR
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sat May 01, 2004 12:25 am


So the A320family aircrafts will be able to cross the atlantic ?
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anxebla
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sat May 01, 2004 1:00 am

No,Ts-ior, with the exception (I think) A319CJ.
USAFHummer... The 180' ETOPS is ideal for flights over water (or over a desolate place/desert)in short-medium routes.Example, for flights within some areas of Pacific Ocean, or like Concordboy say, for US-West Cost to Hawaii
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Leskova
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sat May 01, 2004 1:32 am

Anxebla, I don't think that there are any short to medium routes that would require ETOPS 180... wouldn't logic dictate that a flight requiring ETOPS 180 (or 3 hours) would have to be at least 6 hours long? With anything shorter, you'd always be less than 180 minutes away from either your departure or arrival airport... or am I missing something?

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anxebla
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sat May 01, 2004 2:33 am

You are right, Leskova.But remember some A320 family "members" can fly for more than 6 hours and sometimes the shortest way between two points is over water or over desert (for example, the Sahara's air ways)Anyway, 180' ETOPS is a show of trust in Airbus and CFM/IAE than an useful issue. In many cases ETOPS 120' is enough.
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Leskova
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sat May 01, 2004 3:00 am

Anxebla - no doubt, this is definitely good news for my favorite narrowbody Big grin - after all, even if it's not used much, there's always a chance that someone might need it.

Thanks for the clarification...

Regards,
Frank
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sat May 01, 2004 6:19 am

I thought that the etops certification comes related to the airlines maintenance practices along with the aircraft types.

Does. This is approval, not certification.



I don't think that there are any short to medium routes that would require ETOPS 180...

Apparently, you missed Reply#6 m'friend  Smile
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Leskova
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sat May 01, 2004 4:58 pm

ConcordeBoy, I hadn't missed reply #6 - I just thought that US West Coast to Hawaii wasn't really a "medium" length route any more... but I guess it does still count as one of those.

What actually is the definition of "medium" in this sense? I always thought that it was something up to 5 hours (ok, true - that would include USWest/Hawaii - the eastbound flights are just under 5 hours if I recall correctly)?

I knew I shouldn't have added the words "to medium" to my reply... Big grin

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Starlionblue
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Mon May 03, 2004 5:28 am

4 Engines 4 Long Haul is and will continue to be a good slogan. While the rest of us A.nutters can tell the difference, the whuffos won't notice that they're on a 2 holer with no slogan.


BTW Virgin also writes: "More experienced than our name implies" on some planes, so that's how much I care about the other slogan  Big grin
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777ualsfo
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Mon May 03, 2004 4:10 pm

Isn't LAX-Hawaii and SFO-Hawaii longer than 3 hours?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Mon May 03, 2004 6:20 pm

777ualsfo, yes they are longer. But the 180 minutes refer to the distance to a diversion airport. So the segment can be any length as long as you are always within 180 minutes of somewhere you can land. In your example, the plane would turn back before the half way point and keep going after it.

The West Coast<-> Hawaii case is of course a bit extreme since there is nothing in between. Normally there would be other places to divert to.
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anxebla
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Tue May 04, 2004 12:40 am

Do you know if a Hawaii<->West Coast is there any point within between 120-180' or close to 180'? Is this leg enough long for this one?
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Leskova
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Tue May 04, 2004 12:45 am

Around the middle of the flight there is a part that is beyond ETOPS 120.
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anxebla
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Tue May 04, 2004 12:54 am

Thanks for your info, Leskova  Smile
Then... is this route always served by wide planes?
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Leskova
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Tue May 04, 2004 1:01 am

Anxebla, with "wide planes", do you mean "widebodies"? Then the answer is no - there are dozens of B757s flying between the west coast and Hawaii, and on some routes, I think, you'll even find B737NGs (I think Aloha flies with B737-700s).


[Edited 2004-05-03 18:03:45]
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anxebla
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Tue May 04, 2004 1:10 am

Is the 737NG with 180' ETOPS, too?
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Leskova
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Tue May 04, 2004 1:22 am

Anxebla, according to Boeing, the first scheduled B737NG ETOPS 180 service was operated by Aloha on 14 February 2000 between Honolulu and Oakland...

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737family/pf/pf_ng_milestones.html

So it's been available for quite some time that way.
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dynkrisolo
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Tue May 04, 2004 1:53 am


wouldn't logic dictate that a flight requiring ETOPS 180 (or 3 hours) would have to be at least 6 hours long?


Nope. The 180-minute rule applies to the time a two-engine plane travels with one engine out. It will be at a substantially lower altitude and speed. So, distance flown in three hours with one engine is shorter than the distance flown in three hours with two engines at the optimal altitude.

I could be wrong on this one, but I believe the primary driver behind this certification is the desire by several major European airlines to operate the 319LR, a.k.a. ACJ, with premium class seating only. Since it will carry a lot less load than your usual 319 or 320, it can fly further. They can be comfortably deployed, both figuratively and literally, across the Atlantic. Heck, they can probably be used between Japan and the US West Coast, too.

[Edited 2004-05-03 18:56:17]
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Tue May 04, 2004 4:38 am

Do you know if a Hawaii<->West Coast is there any point within between 120-180' or close to 180'? Is this leg enough long for this one?

California-Hawaii is not ETOPS180 for all aircraft.

All 777s, most 767s, and some 757s (UA's subfleet of PW2040 aircraft are an example) can operate some such flights using ETOPS138
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danialanwar
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sat May 08, 2004 4:09 am

doesnt ETOPS120 mean 120 minutes from a diversion ON A SINGLE engine? Anyway, believe LAX-HNL is 5 hours, so you cant make it with ETOPS120 (2 hours), but you may just make it with ETOPS138 (diversion to western Hawaiian islands).
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timz
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RE: Calif- Hawaii

Sat May 08, 2004 5:55 am

"California-Hawaii is not ETOPS180 for all aircraft.

All 777s, most 767s, and some 757s (UA's subfleet of PW2040 aircraft are an example) can operate some such flights using ETOPS138."

Assuming what single-engine cruise speed?
 
timz
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Closest Airports For 138-min Etops

Sat May 08, 2004 10:44 am

Hilo to San Francisco is 2013.9 nm; I'm guessing no Hawaiian airport is closer to any mainland airport than that (excepting only Half Moon Bay, which I assume isn't a suitable alternate). So, ignoring wind or other complications, single-engine cruise would have to be at least 437.8 knots for 138 minutes to suffice. The actual figure would be a bit more since the aircraft doesn't fly via the minimum-distance point.

Is that possible?
 
buckfifty
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sat May 08, 2004 5:52 pm

On our ETOPS charts, the one hour range circles for single engine ops is...434 nm. Odd, isn't it Tim.  Big grin
 
timz
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Single-engine Speed

Sat May 08, 2004 9:05 pm

Which aircraft does 434 knots on one?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sun May 09, 2004 2:13 am

Assuming what single-engine cruise speed?

Don't quote me on this...

... but I believe that the typical ETOPS180 routes are calculated for aircraft opping 389kt or less on a single engine, whereas the 138 routes are for those who can op at or greater than 425kt.
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buckfifty
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sun May 09, 2004 7:56 am

Which aircraft does 434 knots on one?

A330 and 772/3. It's a baseline figure, but nonetheless the standard that is being used.
 
timz
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425 Knots Plus

Sun May 09, 2004 11:00 am

Well now... that means 240-minute ETOPS for the 777/A330 is enough to cover the north and central Pacific even if Wake and all the other emergency airports close. Draw a line from Mexico down to Easter Island and west to Australia, and everything above that line is open to twins (and much territory below it too, of course). No need to replace Johnston or Midway or Majuro or Shemya. Or Wake. Might not even need Petropavlovsk?

And 330-minute will only be needed for a few flights anywhere in the world. If they close Ascension it'll be handy...

[Edited 2004-05-09 04:02:27]

[Edited 2004-05-09 04:04:21]
 
anxebla
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RE: A320, Now With 180' Etops

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:34 pm

Does anyone know if the Air France A-319LR's are certificed with ETOPS-180'?
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