Topic Author
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Hold Short Lines :/

Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:53 am

Well last night i buzzed up to Madison from Dubuque (bout a 40 minute flight in my C172). I was leaving MSN and i was given prog taxi instructions to RWY 18 via Charlie and RWY 32. Followed the FedEx 727 out (i hung back a lil bit hehe) and i remember watching him takeoff and soon enough i was at RWY 18 but ...ummm I don't believe i was cleared for takeoff, and i had somehow skirted past the Hold Short Line. I think a combination of watching him takeoff and the different runway setup they have led to the mix up...more my fault obviously. The hold short line for 18 was on RWY 32 and i didn't realize it until i passed it. Luckily the Madison Controller must not have taken any notice because i called for takeoff and he cleared me and didn't say anything about it. Controllers usually call you out on something if they're going to do anything about it, let alone if they're going to report you. I am sure i am safe but i still feel kind of ashamed and irresponsible. I definitely will be watching for all hold short lines from now onnn...anyone else ever have a problem with something like that?
Do you like movies about gladiators?
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:57 am

Nothing to be proud of and a good way to get a call from the FAA.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:25 am

Just fill out one of those NASA forms. It may end up helping others from making the same honest mistake.
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:03 pm

When you are in the cockpit and you are the one in command of the aircraft, focus on your duty at hand first. Forget watching the 727 depart, you might have had a 737 land on top of you. When you are in the cockpit, that MUST come first before sight seeing, no matter how rare or exciting it is. If you really must watch it depart, stop the aircraft (making sure you are not blocking the taxiway) and put the throttle to idle while standing on the brakes. No need to kill yourself and who knows how many others for a quick look at a jet departing.
I've got to be frank here. In all honesty, that is one of my pet peeves. Fly (drive) the plane first. NOTHING outside the plane that is not a threat to you matters. I love watching the big guys land and takeoff too, but not when I'm the PIC. It's oversights and lapses of judgment like that that often result in front page headlines.
I'm glad you are making a point of being more aware of your environment. Fill out one of those NASA reports ASAP and send it off.
Prior Proper Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:30 pm

Just fill out one of those NASA forms. It may end up helping others from making the same honest mistake.

And save you from possible enforcement action if it ever came down to it. Actually, there may be several ASRS forms filed for that airport already and you might just get some safety changes to be made. You never know.

Just to reiterate what my fellow CFI said to you: ALWAYS be vigilant on the ground. As a pilot, you are more likely to screw up on the ground than a lot of other places, because a lot of pilots (and flight instructors for that matter) tend to skim over on-airport safety and focus on more fun things. Best things to keep in mind:

1) Of course, always keep your head up. There's nothing on the instrument panel that's going to help you out at all while you're taxiing. I saw a 206 roll into the grass one day because the pilot was fumbling with the GPS while on the way to the run-up area...not a good start to the flight.

2) This one kind of goes with the last part of #1. Do all your setup stuff while stopped. Get the cockpit organized before engine start, set up your navs/GPS/comms either on the ramp or in the run-up area. Nothing's so important that you have to do it on the roll. Pay attention to your wind correction and maintain a scan similar to one you'd do in the out for that errant rampie on an out-of-control baggage tug, or even good ol' Dale on his Scag mower that might decide to shimmy across the taxiway in front of you.

3) When you're in the run-up area and using your checklist, it's VERY easy to bury your head in the instrument panel (and your lap, where the checklist usually is). Bad idea. Hold the checklist over the yoke and do it. That way, you have to look up. You should always be looking out, anyway!

4) I find this, rather alarmingly, increasingly common. Make sure you are at IDLE while taxiing. Remember, it only takes a little bit of power to get going, and almost none to keep moving. DO NOT RIDE THE BRAKES. It's VERY easy to do this and requires constant vigilance. Many throttles will "feel" that they are in an idle position when, in fact, they are running higher. Be sure to pull it back to the low end of the recommended RPM (typically 800). This will help you, particularly at hold short lines. The engine will be at idle and you will have less of an opportunity to start rolling. Everyone is susceptible to this...just a few days ago someone with 5x my total time did it with me in the airplane. It took me three times of pulling the throttle back for him to finally get it. It's not a race. No need to hot-rod. After all, we may really need those brakes someday.

Lastly, don't kill yourself over it. Even the boldest and self-proclaimed best of the CFI's on here have had something similar happen. I know I have!! It's just one of many, many, many learning experiences you will have in your long flying career  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:40 pm

At least you have realised that you made a mistake and owned up to it. It would be a lot more worrying if you hadn't realised.

I doubt you will make the same mistake again.
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:50 pm

I agree with everyone else, fill out a NASA form just in case. How far across the hold short line were you? Was it just your nose gear peaking across or was half or more of the airplane on the runway? If was just the front of your airplane hanging across, I doubt anyone noticed except you.

This seems to be something that pilots don't pay enough attention to. I always try and emphasize to students how important it is to make sure the entire airplane is across the hold short line before they stop and run their checklist after exiting the runway. Most pilots are razzled or pre-occupied during the after landing phase and have a tendency to lose focus and are a little confused about where the airplane is and should be. I haven't found holding short before takeoff to be as much of a problem as after landing, but the same concepts apply.

I agree with what JbirdAV8r said about taxiing, especially in single pilot operations at busy airports.
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:44 pm

I'm jumping on the NASA wagon here. Get one of those reports filled out soon. Not to harp on this, but runway incursions are bad. Some years back a Twin Cessna was chopped in half by an MD-82 here at STL becuase the little guy didn't know where he was going and taxied onto an active runway just as the jet was on takeoff roll.

We all make mistakes. I would bet that nearly everybody on this fourm right now has done something that could have had grave consequences if the conditions were right. Chalk it up to experience and remember that a good pilot is always learning.
Topic Author
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:31 pm

Thanks for the words of advice, friends. I think i was basically sitting on the hold short line (it was probably somewhere beneath the last half of the airplane). It's doubtful the man in the tower could see that i was past the hold short line (basically the tower is almost as far away from that side of the runway as you can get at that airport, and it was night time. Lucky for me i suppose. Yes i've downloaded the NASA form and i need to print it out and i will send it in. and i wasn't actually on RWY 18, i was still on RWY 32 just across the hold short line. but seriously i appreciate the comments about it thats why i posted on here.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:27 am

I almost did that once at a new airport. It had been my first time up in a while, but the sharp controller caught me right before I crossed it and I hit the brakes.

About the NASA, don't you only get to do that like once every few years? I'd save it for something like busting Class B or something.

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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:11 am

About the NASA, don't you only get to do that like once every few years? I'd save it for something like busting Class B or something.

Don't believe so. I just made a quick glance at that FAR and don't see a restriction on how many times you can file doesn't make any sense at all to have one, anyway. The primary goal of the FAA is to promote aviation safety, and eliminating ASRS eligibility could conceivably detract from aviation safety.

Anywho, you must 1) not have been found guilty of violating the FAR's in the past five years and 2) submit the report within 10 days.

I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Sat May 01, 2004 1:34 pm

The yellow lines notwithstanding, wouldn't the hold short position also be demarcated using a lighted red sign with the numbers "36-18" or simply just "18"? That would have been another indication of the hold short position.

(Didn't feel like you needed another person to second the NASA form.)  Smile

At Burlington Intl (KBTV) Rwy 19 starts at the midpoint of runway 15-33 and hold short line for Runway 19 is the same exact line for the hold short for Rwy 15-33... It's a pretty common occurance in BTV to have the tower controller clear pilots to take off Rwy 19, only to find the pilots taxi onto 15 and proceed to take off down the wrong runway... Only if the pilot had turned some more he would have discovered his error and seen the correct runway for takeoff...

Woodreau / KMVL

Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Sat May 01, 2004 1:45 pm

You can fill out as many NASA forms as you want, infact, we are encouraged to file them when you notice a safety problem. They won't save you from a violation either. You can still be violated, they just can't use that information against you. What you do get out if it is, they can't take certificate action against you if you file a NASA form. You are allowed to use this once every 3 years.

All outlined on the ASRS website (well, it was the last time I filed one a few years ago.
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
Topic Author
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Mon May 03, 2004 9:40 am


NASA form filled out and sent in. I went back to Madison yesterday and did not violate any FAR's and abided by all runway and taxiway markings. Thanks again for all the comments and suggestions and the support. I was pretty pissed at myself for what happeend and im glad you didn't all attack me and stuff. hehe.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
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RE: Hold Short Lines :/

Mon May 03, 2004 10:09 am

You live in Dubuque? I transition over that airport all the time enroute to Manchester (C27) i have A LOT of family in Delaware county and was just over there last weekend helping some old friends get caught up on some field work. Madison was also where my first solo cross-country was to flying into controlled airspace. As i was taxing to runway 32 i had told to stop short of a taxi way for a CO ERJ-145. While i was sitting there 2 F-16's took off in formation. Their i was, with 2X hours and watching an ERJ about to take off and to F-16's take off on the same runway i was about to use. To say the least i was a little intimidated. Send me an email sometime if you ever want to go flying since where so close.

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