7574EVER
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Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:49 am

Hey guys,

Well I have to say...I'm certainly not in the best of moods after today. Here's the story.

I have one buddy of mine (a VFR private pilot) that I fly with quite often. There are two flights that we made together out of the flying club where I do my recreational flying. While enroute, I let him fly the plane for a very short amount of time, however in his logbook he logged the entire flight, landings and all. This was done basically for sentimental purposes only. It's to my understanding that as long as he doesn't use the flight for currency purposes or towards the time requirements for another certificate or rating, doing this is okay. I should mention also, that at the time he didn't have to much intention of doing any more training.

Anyway, recently he decided to go for his IFR ticket. After flying with me those couple of times out of my flying club, he was very impressed with the aircraft (almost all brand new) and the people there. So he decided that this is where he wanted do his training. Today he went out to the club for his first flight and membership registration. While going through the membership process, one of the owners had to make a copy of his certificates and logbook pages. In the process of making the logbook copies, the co-owner noticed that he had time in the club's aircraft. She also saw my name in his logbook written in as safety pilot on a previous flight out of a different FBO. When she recognized my name she asked my friend if I was who he had flown with. Of course, he told her yes.

The issue with this situation is that club rules state that only club members are allowed to fly the club's aircraft. At the time, I didn't recall this being a rule. Had I known it was, I never would have let anyone else fly.

So this afternoon I took a drive out to the airport to try and clear everything up. Things didn't clear up as well as I had hoped. Because I broke a club rule (apparently a very BIG rule) I'm facing the possibility of being ejected from the club. The woman that I was talking to (the co-owner mentioned before) said that if she had to make a decision right then and there, it would be that my membership would be revoked and I would no longer be allowed to fly the club's aircraft. She said she didn't want to make any hasty decisions, so she wanted to sleep on it and talk to her husband (the owner) and would call me by Tuesday or Wednesday to let me know what was decided.

I tried to explain that he only handled the controls in flight for a short time and never did any t/o's or landings. Unfortunately, his logbook stated that he did and that's what they are going by. I guess my word is no good against a logbook.

Here's the part the is really bothersome to me. During the discussion in the woman's office, it was implied that I was being irresponsible and not using common sense when I decided to let my friend fly for a few minutes. She felt that a "multi-engine rated commercial pilot should have more sense than that." Maybe I'm too sensitive but hearing the words irresponsible and lack of common sense thrown around kinda hit home a bit.

So my question is this. How many of you pilots out there have let someone else handle the controls for a bit during a flight? Do a lot of people do it or do I just think that a lot of people do it. Was I really being that irresponsible?

Oh well. I broke a rule and I guess I have to deal with the consequences. I'm certainly hoping that she was just trying to put the fear of God in me to make sure that I never do it again; and, that I'm really not facing being kicked out of the club. What sucks even more is that I have an application for a line position in with them as well as hopes of working as a CFI there. I guess I can kiss those two job goodbye.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I need to vent a little.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
doug_or
Posts: 3122
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Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:18 am

wow. I'll just respond to the question at hand, though I assume an ensuing discussion will probably cover the breadth of the post.

While acting as PIC I don't see much of a problem with allowing others to do some manipulation of the controls, especialy if they are qulaified (as a PPL I would consider your friend qulaified). I have previously done this when getting into my flightbag, refrenceing charts, and copying ATIS.

Good luck,

Doug
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
futureualpilot
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Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:19 am

Has your friend backed you up so far? If not, me thinks he should, since he is part of the reason this all is happening.

To answer your couple questions, yes I too have let another person fly, if even only for a moment or two while I needed both hands for digging in my flightbag, or shutting my door after it opened, or whatever reason may arise. I think we'd be lying if we said we never let another person handle the aircraft, as you did, during cruise.

Anyway, best of luck, I wish the best for you.

[Edited 2004-06-13 03:28:18]
Life is better when you surf.
 
airplay
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Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:34 am

If the club censures you, make sure the entire membership knows about it. It sounds to me like a classic case of someone in a position of authority enjoying making you squirm. (I won't get into the gender issue here, but I've seen it before)

It is certainly not out of the ordinary for someone as experienced as you to allow someone to take the controls for a short time and although it may require a comment or a caution, it certainly doesn't warrant what this person is suggesting.
 
7574EVER
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Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:42 pm

Has your friend backed you up so far? - Futureualpilot

Yes, 100%. In fact, he just left a message on my cell about an hour ago saying that he was putting a correction line in his logbook to "undo" the double logged time.
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
pilotpip
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Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:00 pm

I think the club does have a legitimate beef. Your friend is not checked out by them and this could be a big deal in the event that something had happened. I guess that is one of the joys of not owning the aircraft, you have to abide by their rules.

My question is, why did he log the landings as well as the time? I've had friends take the controls as well, but that still doesn't really make them able to log the time. Especially those landings if he didn't make them. It gets hard to distinguish the time you can apply to ratings and the time you can't as that logbook gets more entries. As a result, I have made it a habit to not log time unless it counts. It's one thing to let somebody else "fly" for a minute, it's another to let them log time they didn't honestly earn.
DMI
 
7574EVER
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:48 pm

Pilotpip,

You hit it right on the head with your statement about him not being checked out. The clubs main issue is with the insurance if something were to happen. I CAN certainly respect their point of view.

On the subject of why did he log what he logged? I'll say to you the same thing I told them. When the day is through and all is said and done, what he logs in his logbook is his business. It's out of my hands. He should know what he should and shouldn't log and do it accordingly.
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
meister808
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:53 pm

Yeah... the only thing I can think of that they are having an issue with is the landings, since you are both saying that he didn't land, yet there is landings logged in the book, as well as the whole flight time, which doesn't leave a lot of time for you to land anyway. Pretty much, logbooks are a legal document and they need to be treated as such... don't fudge anything in there.

That said, it sounds to me like an honest misunderstanding. You, a member of the club, were present in the aircraft, probably even in the left seat, so I don't see how there is really an issue here. Make sure that if it comes down to you making your case make sure they know that the rules were unclear, so that even if you are censured, the rules can be made more clear and other pilots can avoid this problem in the future.

Good luck.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
7574EVER
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:05 pm

You, a member of the club, were present in the aircraft, probably even in the left seat - Meister808

YES!!! Most certainly I was in the left seat. God help me if I were to be flying from the right seat and they found out about it! That's another big no no and is MUCH larger than the issue I'm involved in right now.
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
L-188
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:19 pm

I don't know what to say.

If they offer a membership to your friend and boot you, I hope that he walks too. But if he is backing your story that it is a logbook error on your part, well you have a pretty good ally there.

What you probably need to do is perform the porcupine defense, mainly put your quills up and give the impression you are seriously considering suing them on the basis it is an errant logbook entry that is the problem, not you breaking club rules. Have a lawyer make some non-discrete enquiries at the club on your behalf. Club flight policies, diciplanary procedures, other disciplinary actions that have occurred against other members for similar or other occurrences ect ect ect.

Maybe you can spook them into backing down just by making noise, making them think that a lawsuit against them is a real possibility if they boot you. 3/4 of law is perception, so that might work for you.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
7574EVER
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:26 pm

But if he is backing your story that it is a logbook error on your part - L-188

Actually, just to make things clear, it was logbook error on my friends part not mine. He logged time and landings that shouldn't have been logged. I'm not saying that he is entirely to blame. According to the club rules I shouldn't have let him touch the controls at all in the first place.

Man, when am I going to learn to just lie and say he never touched the controls? Damn my parents for bringing me up an honest person!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
jwenting
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:37 pm

you broke the rules you face the consequences.
In your defense, your friend fraudulently put an entry into his log, for which you could send the FAA after him which might help you.

But as others have said, you placed club property at risk and more than that put the club at risk of litigation had your friend caused the aircraft to crash into someone's back yard causing damage or injury.

I think everyone lets someone else handle the controls once in a while, but it's all along the lines of "see no evil, hear no evil", iow as long as it's not official it doesn't happen.
Since your friend put it in his log it IS official and therefore DID happen and now the club has to take steps to not only cover themselves in case someone you flew overhead sues them for letting someone put them at risk by letting him fly an aircraft without being cleared but also to set an example for other members to be careful.
I wish I were flying
 
greasespot
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:44 pm

Well I figure this much. If I was in the owners shoes and I say that a non club member had logged the flight and you did not....Then he made the flight. The log is a legal document and by letting him log the flight then he must have. All your arguments would have been like you were just trying to get out of trouble.

Remember when you put you name and signature to something it can and will become legal. You signed for the airplane and he logged the flight.

If you get kicked out take your lumps and move on. It was caused by your own doing and no ones else's... You are to blame and not him or the club.

Look at it this way. Lets say they found a problem that was pilot induced. Say you landed hard and next day the nose wheel collapsed. They pull a copy of your log book and it shows you were NOT flying then the insurance will not cover the repair. Who pays then?

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
7574EVER
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:52 am

They pull a copy of your log book and it shows you were NOT flying - Greasespot

This is where alot of the problems lie. MY log shows I was flying. My friend double logged the time. The time I let him have the controls in flight was minimal and not even worth the bother of taking out of my own log. I'm not sure if it even added up to a full .1 of flight time. He has already made a correcting line in his log to remove the time. I'm not sure if that will help or not.
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
learpilot
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:30 am

In your defense, your friend fraudulently put an entry into his log, for which you could send the FAA after him which might help you.

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that. You want him to report his friend to the FAA? I'm glad I don't know you.  Insane

Bill, you need to let the club fuhrer...I mean president know that inviting someone who has inappropriately logged flight time to join the club could bring a lot more problems than letting someone fly for .1 in cruise from the right seat,* and it is a lot more illegal. After all, how much of his logged time is legit if he's already admitted to fudging his logbook? If letting your mom, dad, girlfriend, etc. fly from the right seat for a few minutes is that big of a problem, they need to remove the second set of controls.

*Disclaimer: Only do this if they kick you out and invite your friend to join, and only if your friend declines the invitation. If your friend takes advantage of your misfortune, take it up with him personally, and then contact an attorney.



Heed our warnings or your future will be underpant free!
 
320tech
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:18 pm

7574ever:

Good luck buddy, I can't believe you're even in this situation.

I'm not impressed with your flying club - they take the word of someone they don't know over yours? You both log the time, but you're lying and he's okay? Not much sense being applied there.

It's not that uncommon, by the way, that people log time that they're not qualified to log - particularly when they're not pilots - you can even buy something called a "passenger log" for the purpose.

And of course, I have allowed others to fly the airplane when I am PIC. I have flown friends who weren't checked out at the club, or who didn't even have pilot's licences. Big deal, it's not like I went into the back for a drink (too hard to climb over the seats in a 172  Big grin ). The PIC is the PIC, and is totally responsible for the flight. As long as you aren't negligent (ie, not buzzing, drunk, etc, etc), there shouldn't be a problem.

I wouldn't sweat the lost jobs - doesn't sound like a good working environment.

Let us know how it turns out.
The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.
 
saintsman
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:23 am

When I was training I logged my hours, but so did the instructor. Thats how they build hours. The instructor was flying the aircraft but it was me that was hands on.

Who hasn't taken a friend flying and let them have a go? It doesn't mean that they were flying (granted that non of them booked the time).

Some one is on a power trip here. Find another club. It'll be their loss not yours.
 
learpilot
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:37 am

When I was training I logged my hours, but so did the instructor. Thats how they build hours. The instructor was flying the aircraft but it was me that was hands on.

Yea, but that's legal. His buddy "double logging" isn't. And if he gets kicked out and his buddy gets invited to join, he needs to call our friends Greg or Jaysit (both attorneys) if he doesn't get back at least what he paid to buy into the club.

But yes, I do agree, no matter what happens, find another flying club and tell that witch to pull the broomstick out of her rear end.


[Edited 2004-06-14 21:38:29]
Heed our warnings or your future will be underpant free!
 
Guest

RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:40 am

Were rules broken? Yeah, but being kicked out of the club seems a bit extreme as a form of punishment. It was a minor slip-up, and those types of things happen. A decent person would say "don't let it happen again," especially considering your record of responsibility.

So, if this co-owner says "don't let it happen again," then you know the club is worth staying with. If not, then you really can do better. If you end up getting das boot, spread it all around--the aviation community is tight and word travels quickly. Believe me, the club will pay for their mistake, and it will be exacted in bad PR. NO ONE wants a bad rep.

"During the discussion in the woman's office, it was implied that I was being irresponsible and not using common sense when I decided to let my friend fly for a few minutes. She felt that a "multi-engine rated commercial pilot should have more sense than that." Maybe I'm too sensitive but hearing the words irresponsible and lack of common sense thrown around kinda hit home a bit."

Yeah, that kind of bothers me too. Who made her the aviation god? A business owner should know better than to reprimand customers.

Anyway, I think a warning would be adequate (after all, I appreciate the club's position too), but losing your spot in the club is cruel and unusual.

'Speed
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:13 am

Bill, can you e-mail me details on the flight club?


Also, I know I'm the pupil telling the karate master how to kill the dragon, but the worst thing you can do is let her own you. What's the worst that can happen? She can kick you out, and you can likely get your money back as mentioned above. You're not going to jail, so what's the worry? I've dealt with people like that, and they don't like it when they meet someone they can't dominate. Anyways, useless advice aside please e-mail me the details if you're not comfortable posting them.
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:18 am

7574EVER,

I understand your point as well but your friend logged time that he didn't earn. A landing he didn't earn, and it was in an aircraft where you really can't log SIC. If you were an instructor, it would be different. But you are the one that signed whatever the club required and are the one that was checked out and agreeing to their terms, he isn't.

On another level, your friend really screwed your chances of working for this club as you had mentioned. While it was totally unintentional on his part you may not have the opportuninty of working there in any capacity despite the outcome.

While I don't agree with the way this club is treating the matter, it may be in your best intrest to bail and find a new club or FBO to get involved with and build a good relationship because unfortunately, who you know often preceeds what you know in this business.

To everybody else out here who takes a friend flying, as I often do. Don't let them log the time if you're unsure that it's legal/within the club's rules.
DMI
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:18 am

The damage has been done so suck it up and face the music. And don't regret being brought up as an honest person. Accept the penalties and remeber this will help you say "no" to someone when you know deep down inside that you should. I used to have this problem, but now that I have learned to do the right thing, I sleep better.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
learpilot
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:22 am

So what happened?  Confused
Heed our warnings or your future will be underpant free!
 
7574EVER
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:43 am

So what happened? - Learpilot

Don't know. Never heard a word from them. A bit unprofessional IMO. If I don't hear anything by Friday I'll go over there in person to see if anything has been decided.

Great, my luck they're looking for a good lawyer to take me to court for breaking the contract. LOL

[Edited 2004-06-17 04:45:17]
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
gigneil
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:48 am

Maybe you can spook them into backing down just by making noise, making them think that a lawsuit against them is a real possibility if they boot you. 3/4 of law is perception, so that might work for you.

I think this is the worst thing you could possibly do, no offense. You have to deal with these people on an ongoing basis in the future, and, as we all know, its best to have all your contacts be friendly ones.

Take their shit, have your friend back you up, have him amend his log and show it to them, and make it clear you don't think anything bad happened.

N
 
7574EVER
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:17 pm

Never heard a word from them. A bit unprofessional IMO. If I don't hear anything by Friday I'll go over there in person to see if anything has been decided.

I did just that and she wasn't there but would be back on Monday. So, I called on Monday and was told that she was too busy to talk and that she would return my call. The week went by and I never heard a word. I called again later in the week and again she was too busy to talk and would return my call. Surprise, surprise, I never heard anything.

After waiting over two weeks for an answer I was suppose to get in two days, and blown off repeatedly I went in and quit the club today. Here's the kicker. In order to get the $300 that I'm supposed to get back I have to go through "the woman". She was there today but when the girl at the desk told her I wanted my deposit back, she was on the phone. I waited and waited and once she got off the phone she was (yup, you guessed it) too busy to even stick her head out the door to acknowledge the fact I was there. I was told that she would call me back. Yea, I'm sure she will.

If I don't get a call by Wednesday, I'll make the call. If she's again too busy to talk and I don't hear anything by Thursday things are going to get real interesting real fast.

I know I unintentionally broke a rule and for that, I'm sorry. However, I've tried to remain professional and polite throughout this situation. I don't think it's took much to ask for the same in return. After calling repeatedly with no response I feel like I'm intentionally being jerked around, or that they feel that because I'm only nineteen I don't deserve the same respect that would be given to an older club member. Even if they have been really busy and didn't have a chance to discuss it, I don't think a thirty second courtesy call stating so is too much to ask for.

Regardless of the management's personal feelings, professionalism should always prevail over personal feelings and arrogance.


[Edited 2004-06-29 06:27:28]
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
fspilot747
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:21 pm

Tell her she'll be on the phone with your attorney if you don't see your $300.00. That'll get her attention =)
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:00 pm

I'd leave the club voluntarily and never come near the place again. Sounds like a bunch of A-holes.....there are plenty of other places to rent airplanes from. Anyone that anal about about a C172 (or similiar craft) has problems....
 
Guest

RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:18 am

"...Sounds like a bunch of A-holes.....there are plenty of other places to rent airplanes from. Anyone that anal about about a C172 (or similiar craft) has problems...."

Amen to that! Also, you should tell everyone you can about your bad experience there. As I said earlier, they will pay dearly for their mistakes once word gets around about what a shabby outfit they are to work with. I'd also threaten legal action, even if it is a bluff. It will let them know that you are serious.

Good luck and keep us informed.

'Speed
 
7574EVER
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:31 am

I'd leave the club voluntarily and never come near the place again.

That's exactly what I did (see reply 25). I only wish I had done it sooner and didn't wait two weeks. I'd sure like to never go near the place again but I'll have to if I don't see my $300 in the very near future.
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
sllevin
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintent

Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:35 am

I'd have to see the actual rule to know if what you di was wrong.

IMO, as long as you were PIC you should have been fine, takeoffs, landings, whatever. After all, that's what insurance looks at. So financially they should be covered, and legally, well, you are the only one taking a risk of having the incident on YOUR record.

I'd go in one more time, and speak with "the woman." If you must, simply go by and walk into her office (don't assault anyone, but ignore them if they say "she's busy, you can't...."

Politely inform her that if you don't have a check in 15 minutes that you'll leave and go directly to small claims. If she doesn't take care of it, go the small claims route. Make sure your friend performs the service of the papers and invoices you $100 to do so. That way you can collect an additional $100.

It's well worth the time to teach people a lesson.

Steve
 
7574EVER
Topic Author
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RE: Need Advice - Broke Flying Club Rules Unintentionally

Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:04 pm

After two days of not hearing anything I called the club. I was told by the girl at the front desk that the check was in the mail. Sure enough, when I got home there was a letter from the club on the kitchen table. When I opened it up, a check for $300 fell out. Yea!! Money!! *sigh* Over two weeks to resolve something that was supposed to be resolved in two days. Oh well.

I have a checkout in a 182RG at another FBO tomorrow afternoon. I've been inside this FBO before and it's a really nice place with lots of corporate operations. Maybe I'll make a few connections.

Thanks everyone for all the advice and encouragement.
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!

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