squirrel83
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Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:55 am

This might be a stupid topic but I have never seen it done. In the following photo http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=627377 it states Here we have the A318, completing a roll, who said airliners couldn't go upside down! Did it really do a roll at the Airshow? Can other aircraft do the same thing? wouldn't there be too much stress on the aircraft; wings, ect.?

737, 757, 767, 747, a318, a319, a 320 ect ect ect. . .
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westindian425
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:03 am

Well, back in the 70's the Boeing 707 (Called 320 Dash 80 then) was doing a demonstration in Seattle when the chief test pilot performed a few barrel rolls to the amazement of the crowd, and the scared shock of Boeing's CEO.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Since you haven't heard of it, check out the Discovery Wings Channel at any point during the day just when a show is over (usually at 2-3 minutes before the hour). This is when they show historic moments in aviation. I'm sure you'll see it at some point during the day. They repeat it (and a few other events) all day, everyday.

Neil
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:09 am


WestIndian425 - Tex Johnston performed the barrel roll in August 1955.
 
beachthing
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:17 am

The test pilot of the dash-80 reminded the Boeing CEO that while doing a roll the plane maintained normal G levels...rolling is way less demanding than people think it is.
 
voodoo
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:26 am

I was at Farnborough on the day that photo was taken and there was no A318 roll or upside down flight.
A `wing-over' (at the top of a climb) maybe but from where I was standing I don't think it went past 90 degrees.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
westindian425
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:47 am

Deltaffindfw

Oops! Sorry about that. I'm not sure why I though 70's.

Neil
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:51 am


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Simon Nicholls



If you look at the photographer's comment, you'll see that he actually winked after his statement.. Obviously, he was joking..
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squirrel83
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:31 am

I read the comment as well; it just sparked the question thats all. .
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JetMechMD80
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:37 am

Yes they can be rolled, just like any other aircraft. I personaly rode on a DC-9 test flight many years ago, where the aircraft was rolled.
"I get along great with nobody"~ Billy Idol
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:45 am

This is A.net. Mistakes are unforgiveable. I made a misake once and was sent to Siberia, but "it was closed".

If this plane was inverted, wouldn't we be looking at the "top" of the aircraft? Or did the photographer miss that part of the "roll"?
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
A388
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:22 am

That a very nice photo and a very impressive "roll"  Wink/being sarcastic

A388
 
f4f3a
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:52 am

The concorde has done a barrel roll.

Most modern airliners are theoretically capable but for obvious reasons they don't usually practice it.



Has anyone seen the footage of the ford tri-motor in the l930s doing continual loops at low level it is very impressive
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:12 pm

A barell roll, when correctly executed, will maintain more or less 1 g on the airframe the whole time. This means no problems with structural stress or fuel feed. I don't see why any plane should not be able to handle this.

A one-point roll will be considerably more difficult, since it requires more manoeuvrable planes, and the g forces change during the roll. Most airliners will probably not be able to handle this.
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Tasha
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:22 pm

Of course commercial aircraft can roll!! LOL!!!  Laugh out loud But they don't roll like a F-16 though!!  Big thumbs up

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
MoodyBlues
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:27 pm

As I understand it, like the 707 roll in the 50s (that footage does kick ass, BTW) Any plane is capable of the barrel roll if done correctly.

However, on modern planes w/ computerized flight controls, doesn't the software prevent excessive angles of bank, etc, which would make the roll impossible, not for the airframe, but the operator?

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PhilSquares
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:59 pm

No FBW Airbus, don't know enough about the 777, will roll beyond 67 degrees, IIRC. There is also pitch limits, I believe +30/-15. It's been a few years since I have flown the 320.

However, any "normal" control aircraft theoretically should be able to do a barrel roll. As previously stated, when done correctly, it is a 1 g maneuver.
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spacecadet
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:10 pm

As I understand it, like the 707 roll in the 50s (that footage does kick ass, BTW) Any plane is capable of the barrel roll if done correctly.

IIRC another 707 crashed when a pilot attempted a barrel roll during a test flight - hence the reason they're generally not encouraged. I have read this accident report but am not sure where to locate it now (probably somewhere around here: http://amelia.db.erau.edu/ec/ntsbaar.htm#67") - apparently there was not enough evidence to definitively point to a barrel roll but it was obvious reading the report that that was what the investigators believed.

I'll keep searching for this report and if I find it I'll post a direct link...

However, on modern planes w/ computerized flight controls, doesn't the software prevent excessive angles of bank, etc, which would make the roll impossible, not for the airframe, but the operator?

On some modern planes, yeah. Depends on what you mean by "modern", though, too - some airplanes have bank angle warnings but no bank limiter. You won't find a bank limiter in a DC-9-50 flying with Northwest today, for example.

Airliners are designed to be inherently stable, though, which means if you invert one it will pitch down (or up, depending on your perspective) pretty rapidly and in some cases uncontrollably. This has happened many times in accidents where the equivalent of a barrel roll was performed in an uncommanded manner - the airplane may have been saved if only there was more altitude to play with, but it's nearly impossible to come out of a barrel roll at anywhere close to the same altitude you went into it with in almost any airliner I could think of. So generally once you get beyond a 90 degree bank angle it becomes practically impossible to either keep the nose up or even maintain altitude if you do - "flying upside down" is futile because the wings aren't shaped to generate lift in that orientation.

The stress of a barrel roll itself wouldn't kill an airframe but the stress of the airspeed you'd gain in the resulting dive, combined with the stress on the control surfaces required to keep a positive attitude would probably at least do some significant damage. The few examples I can think of where airplanes have entered rolls uncommanded and lived to tell about it (China Air off the California coast a while back, for example) have all resulted in major damage to the airplane.

In other words, airlines can roll, but it's not really something you want to do in any modern plane  Smile
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aerobalance
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:14 pm

Starlionblue,

Nice explanation. You saved me the trouble of typing it!  Big grin

On a self-gloss note, I've barrel-rolled a C152, C172, PA-28/235, Citabria, and Bormans' TF-51 after it was built by Square One Aviation.

Also single point rolled that same TF-51 over Lake Matthews, embarrassed to say that I didn't keep enough forward stick pressure on it and I let the nose come down on the last part of the roll. The G.I.B.S. was laughing at that as I was pulling out of that one!  Smile

To roll a big-a$$ commercial aircraft must be a hoot!
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spacecadet
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:05 pm

Just a quick update to my post - it's been a long time since I've read about this incident so I may have confused a dutch roll 707 accident with a barrel roll (I didn't confuse the terms, just may have forgotten which type of roll was involved in the incident I had remembered). Anyway, I think this is the accident I had mentioned, though a dutch roll is a lot different than a barrel roll... still, note that the cause of the accident was bank angles that exceeded limits, leading to structural failure: http://aviation-safety.net/database/1959/591019-0.htm
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cloudy
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:42 pm

Though all of the above is true - wouldn't using a commercial plane in such a manner void your warranty  Smile? What I mean is that there are some planes that are certified for aerobatic maneuvers and some that are not. An airliner is not designed with the possibility of a deliberate roll in mind. Airline manufacturers are not (to my knowledge) required to show to the FAA and JAA that their products would survive such treatment. Something might not work.

What that means is that though most airliners could do it, it would be foolish to do this and to expect the same level of safety ordinarily expected in civil aviation. That level of safety can only be expected by those who use such planes to do what they were made and certified to do. That does not only go for planes, but to many other highly complex products as well.
 
JMChladek
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:22 pm

At last check, the FBW Airbuses had bank limiters so they can't exceed about 35 degrees in a roll if I remember correctly. Although an A320 did get briefly inverted once during an aborted approach to Moscow (can't remember what airline it was). The pilot didn't like the pitch angle on climbout during the aborted approach and applied some foreward stick pressure to lower the nose. The computer responded by continuing to pitch the nose up until the plane practically flipped over on its back. It almost looked like a sloppy loop on the data recorder playback, but thankfully the plane righted itself. So it has happened with an Airbus, just not intentionally.

The 1 gee roll in a big jet is nothing new. Word is that somebody also did it in a B-47 jet bomber during the early 50s and that has a much more spindley looking wing then what the Dash 80 and 707 had. In addition to the inverted flight picture that was taken on the Dash 80 flight, there is also footage of it taken from the ground during the event shot by a spectator watching the boat races.
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:45 pm

The TWA 727 that broke Mach 1 did a barrel roll prior to the resulting Mach dive and survived (and was eventually returned to service with another carrier). Boeing builds them tough - The 707 (PA), 727 (TW) and 747 (China Airlines) have all broken Mach 1 and survived intact.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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pilotntrng
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:59 pm

Ok folks, let me play the idiot here, but we are talking about Roll not Barrel Roll. All Aircraft Roll, just like they Pitch. Roll and Pitch are terms for bank and accent/decent. Im just a Private Pilot, but even in the 172 and a Piper Warrior there are turn coordinators, attitude indicators, and etc. My point being, all aircraft roll.



Regards,

brad
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OPNLguy
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:19 pm

>>>I'll keep searching for this report and if I find it I'll post a direct link...

A more-detailed report...

http://www.avsaf.org/reports/US_reports/1950/1959.10.19_BoeingAirplaneCompany_Boeing707-227.pdf



[Edited 2004-07-29 09:22:46]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:23 pm

A 73G has done a barrell-roll before. It was done on the 1st 73G built and that is now owned by WN. That barrell-roll was a stunt done at the Seattle SeaFair hydroplane race halftime show. I dont exactly remember the year but it was before WN took delivery of their 1st 73G.
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nudelhirsch
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:37 pm

Philsquares has one in...
Today's FBW-systems do not allow angles beyond a certain critical level.
Actually (not intended to stir this up) the Habsheim Crash seemed to be partially caused by limits in the FBW.
I think many planes are, seen from aerodynamics pov capable to roll, but modern steering systems prevent from doing that stuff
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Rotate
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:14 pm

aloha,

the comment for the pciture is just wrong, also have been at Farnborough this weekend, and the A318 did definetelky not a roll , it banked roughly 48 degree ... , thats it ... , the photographer was just fishing for views, and it worked out pretty well, with being top of yesterday. it looks like it is compoleting a roll, but this only the perspective ... , depending where the photographer was standing .....
I personally think, thoise comments shouzld be removed by the screeners, if the photographer is just obvious lying for getting more views ...

robin
ABC
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:49 pm

>>>A 73G has done a barrell-roll before. It was done on the 1st 73G built and that is now owned by WN. That barrell-roll was a stunt done at the Seattle SeaFair hydroplane race halftime show. I dont exactly remember the year but it was before WN took delivery of their 1st 73G.

That's a new one on me...

SWA took its first -700 in late 1997, and if this roll was accomplished before that, you'd have thought that it'd have been as noteworthy and publicly reported as this one, especially since the SeaFair races was the common denominator:

http://www.historylink.org/_output.CFM?file_ID=390

Any chance you've inadvertantly "updated" the original 707 event from 1955 with a 737-700?  Big grin

In the original 707 scenario, Tex Johnston was reportedly admonished not do that again, and I can't believe that in this day and age (not to mention legal environment) that anyone at Boeing would sign-off on any such repeat scenario with a 737-700.

Sorry.....  Insane
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:25 pm

The -700 barrell-roll did happen. It was a PR stunt that Boeing did with this aircraft. I saw it being done on TV while watching the races. Trust me, it was done. It was in WN's tan colors at the time.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Jaspike
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:26 pm

I personally think, thoise comments shouzld be removed by the screeners, if the photographer is just obvious lying for getting more views ...
He winked!! I'll get him to reply to this thread, see what he has to say Big grin

Tom
 
voodoo
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:38 pm

I took the `wink' as an A v. B poke* rather than a self-depracating one (*tho in retrospect it could have been a poke in either direction!  Big grin ).
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
srbrenna
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:26 pm

You can see the roll at http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm

It is a humungous downoad (20Mb) though
 
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vzlet
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:08 pm

A barrel roll may be a relatively benign, "low-G" maneuver, but it's not a "1-G" event as mentioned here and in similar threads. The constantly changing flight path that results in a barrel roll cannot occur without changing G loading, typically to about 2-3G.

-Mark
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EnoreFilho
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:15 pm

Here's the link of a roll with a 737-300 in 1988:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1988/880929-0.htm

This plane was hijacked, and to disarm the criminal, the captain made a roll and a stall, breaking one part of the rudder.
Member of the all mighty Canudos Air Force!!!!
 
squirrel83
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:25 pm

I like that Video of the 707 Roll Very neat ~
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manzoori
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:54 am

Folks,

I was at Farnborough as well and can attest the aircraft did not roll.... and has been mentioned time and again please note the smilie in the comments field indicating the photographer is pulling your leg / having a laugh / whatever. I've got a couple of shots from FAB I could show you that make it look like the A340 rolled too!

The only large aircraft that got close to rolling was the An-74 and the only aircraft that did roll and raised an eyebrow was the Ah-64D Apache longbow which rolled and looped with consumate ease

Cheers!

Rez
 Big thumbs up
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Airplanepics
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:12 am

Ah, I love a.net. This really did make my day!

You get so many people who jump to a conclusion before they have actually read the statement properly.

the comment for the picture is just wrong, also have been at Farnborough this weekend, and the A318 did definitely not a roll , it banked roughly 48 degree ... , that's it ... , the photographer was just fishing for views, and it worked out pretty well, with being top of yesterday. It looks like it is completing a roll, but this only the perspective ... , depending where the photographer was standing .....
I personally think, those comments shouzld be removed by the screeners, if the photographer is just obvious lying for getting more views ...



You really think I was fishing for views? Well, I wasn't. If you want the comment to be removed, contact one of the database editors. You will make a fool out of yourself. Maybe use the spell checker too?

Guys, im just going to remind you of what has already been said, notice the ; -) at the end of the remark box. It was a joke, no the plane didn't roll at all, it was just the camera angle. When I processed the picture it kind of reminded me of a roll, so I thought I'd share my comments with you guys!

Thanks to all of those people who have given me praise for this photo.
And too all of those people who have sent me abusive emails, you need to get a life!

Regards,

Simon Nicholls
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
ben
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:44 am

As was explained in another thread on tech-ops, the Airbus did a series of tight turns almost overhead the crowd.

That's why you get the illusion - simply from the unusual camera angle and no reference to the horizon.

Anyway, nice picture, Simon!

Here is another one I took of the same display:

 
Jkw777
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:07 am

Simon,

I would like to say well done on this achievement.  Smile

I would also like to say, unlike most of you, I actually know Simon.. And he has a great sense of humour and if you did read the comment, you can tell he is just making a joke!

Well done MD11LuxuryLinr for actually getting the message, unlike some that will accuse people for fishing for hits with in an instant!

Personally I love this shot.

Cheers,

Justin  Smile
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AmericanAirFan
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:10 am

A comment to add do planes roll!!!

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Simon Nicholls


I know someone already mentioned the airshow but I have to brag on that picture the guy who took it is a good photographer or maybe its just teh god pilots  Big thumbs up

-AmericanAirFan
"American 1881 Cleared For Takeoff One Seven Left"
 
Airplanepics
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:18 am

I know someone already mentioned the airshow but I have to brag on that picture the guy who took it is a good photographer or maybe its just teh god pilots


It was the good photographer, I can assure you!  Big grin <<<< SARCASTIC SMILIE!

Simon  Big thumbs up
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
n685fe
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:31 am



Did you ever think a DC10 could do a roll? Here it is, it took me a while to fine the reference again. http://www.tailstrike.com/070494.htm.

FX, flight 705, a/c 306
Attempted hijack


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SlamClick
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:32 am

So it has been stated more than once that a 737 did a roll at Seafair in Seattle. It has been re-stated that it was a 737 and not a mistaken reference to the famous 1955 roll in the Dash-80 by Tex Johnston.

Well, I'd bet that the hydroplane races draw quite a crowd. Lots of people who go to the races carry cameras. I'd go so far as to guess that on a nice day at the hydroplane races in Seattle there would be fifty thousand cameras.

Where are the pictures of it? Wasn't it worthy of a picture? Didn't anyone think to carry a telephoto despite the fact that the boat races were way out on the lake?

Is there a picture of it here on aDotNet? Certainly it is such a remarkable event that some of the quality standards might be waived.

Can anyone like to it?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:43 am

>>>Where are the pictures of it? Wasn't it worthy of a picture? Didn't anyone think to carry a telephoto despite the fact that the boat races were way out on the lake?

Good question (that nobody seems to have an answer for). You'd think that with all those cameras out there, -somebody- would have gotten a shot of the event (50+ years after Tex's 707 roll), or that we'd at least seen the event mentioned in the aviation press sometime since the late 1990s. I did a google search and came up empty. I wonder why?  Insane
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
mikec
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:05 am

I think it's really sad that some people are so quick to criticise photographers on here (fake photos, comments not to some peoples liking). I wonder how many of the critics around actually pick up a camera themselves and take photos and get them on this site? - I bet it's not all of them.

I highly doubt the comment was what attracted the hits to the photo. The thumbnail of this photo was what attracted the hits - it's intriguing and people will have looked regardless. Even though it wasn't a roll, the optical illusion certainly made it look like one, so the jokey comment was harmless - I'd much rather read that than a "look at the 3rd window" comment (which *is* pure hit seeking), only to open the large version and find a barely distinguishable face behind a window.

I also thought it was obvious from the wink that Simon was joking. However as Ben pointed out, the tight turns almost overhead caused a different camera angle which made it look like a roll. I have an almost identical sequence of shots (except I managed to cut the horizontal stabiliser off on my one in the same position as Simon's  Big grin - I blame the poor photographer in my case!)
 
SlamClick
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:33 am

Perhaps the photographer is blameless in this but the fact remains that this photo has been linked in two different threads (that I have seen, may be more) and the reason for the linking is that people did not see the "wink" and were astonished that someone rolled an Airbus.

Perhaps a color smiley  Smile would have stood out better.

Also worthy of note, this is by far (29000+ views to 2nd place 10,000+) his most popular photo. That alone might make some suspicious. I doubt that the number has all that much to do with the linking. I've had my photos linked in threads before and it didn't amount to a hundred or so extra views, as far as I could tell.

I don't think anyone really feels that Simon decieved them, more likely that they just felt foolish for buying into the "roll" and not seeing the wink.

P.S. Nice picture.


[Edited 2004-07-29 23:33:57]
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Airplanepics
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:46 am

Hi,

Also worthy of note, this is by far (29000+ views to 2nd place 10,000+) his most popular photo. That alone might make some suspicious. I doubt that the number has all that much to do with the linking. I've had my photos linked in threads before and it didn't amount to a hundred or so extra views, as far as I could tell.


I only got 29000+ views because its top of the day.
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
SlamClick
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RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:58 am

Wouldn't you say it is the other way around? Your picture is top of the day because of the number of hits. Being to top of the last 24-48 hours would also explain why so many people caught the remark about the roll, but failed to notice the wink.

Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
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Starlionblue
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Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Can A Commercial Plane Roll?

Fri Jul 30, 2004 11:14 am

Actually (not intended to stir this up) the Habsheim Crash seemed to be partially caused by limits in the FBW

That crash was caused by the pilot. A plane without FBW (eg the 737) would have fared in the same way. FBW or not does not affect the situation much if you are flying too low and descending, at just about stall speed, and trees are right in front of the plane. The plane exceeded design performance before becoming a dual woodchipper.


As for barrell rolls, I believe they are a low stress manoeuvre. I may be wrong. Discussion?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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