texasflyer
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767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:25 am

I've been on exactly 8 767 flights with Air Canada, Delta, KLM, and AA. And for some reason they always take off real smoothly but then the landings are unusually hard. Is this a characteristic of the plane or have I just had bad luck on all my flights? The 757's that I've flown on land better.
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AMS
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:31 am

for some reason they always take off real smoothly but then the landings are unusually hard.

Yes I tend to agree with you on hard landings on 767's. I fly 767 aircraft quite frequently and also noticed this.


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AMS
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:43 am




Ive also noticed that true on 757s as well........I read that USAir was going to early retire some of their 757 because of main gear structual damge.

I think the 57/67 have problems when they are in ground effect distance.
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PhilSquares
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:51 am

Having flown the 757 not the 767, I disagree. Because of the tilt of the main landing gear, normally touchdowns are much smoother. Unlike the 727/737/A-320 which don't have the tilt type of main landing gear.

As far as USAir retiring aircraft early, if there was damage, the aircraft wouldn't be flying at all. The gear struts are a timed assembly, meaning they are only good for so many hours/cycles and then they have to be overhauled.

Since USAir has some of the ex-EAL 757s they may be parking them rather than doing heavy mx on them.
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KLMyank
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:30 am

I've flown both as well, and got consistently better touchdowns in the 757 as opposed to the 767. I have no idea why. For some reason I could really hold the 757 off and work it on gently, which I've never been able to do consistently with the 76.
 
IBERIA747
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:06 am

I´ve had smooth and hard landings on every aircraft type I´ve flown.

About the 757...I´m still waiting to experience a soft landing, but if we talk about the 767...I had one of my best landings ever on a DL 763 back in 2001 at MAD coming from ATL.
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airportugal310
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:23 am

"Unlike the 727/737/A-320 which don't have the tilt type of main landing gear."

of course not. what is there to tilt even if they wanted too? lol  Smile

When I flew jetBlue's A320 "Absolute Blue" couple weeks back, smoothest landing Ive been through (besides my own  Big grin coughcough*bullshit*coughcough)
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bill142
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:32 am

When I landed at CNS in '98 in a QF 767 the overhead bins moved around quite alot and the landing was fairly hard. Not sure if it was the runway or what was going on there.
 
ua777222
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:33 am

I call the 767 the fat ass of the sky. This is b/c whenever I see a 767 on the ground the back wheels are ALWAYS lower than the front. This might play in a role in how much of the a/c is taking the landing. I personally like harder landings than softer b/c you can feel the force of landing.


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These a/c to me and everyother 767-200/300 that Iv'e seen have lower belly's and higher noses. This to me is unlike any other a/c out there.

Thanks again!

Hope this helps a bit!
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flykal
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:34 pm

AirPortugal310 said: of course not. what is there to tilt even if they wanted too? lol

A little research would prove that you are actually wrong!!


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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:43 pm

I think that the forward tilt of the 767 landing gear (made this way to fit into the bays) could be the reason for the harder touchdowns. Through several 767 flights, casual observation, and a little flight sim i think the unique 767 tilt makes it a bit more challenging to pull off a smooth landing.
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Red Panda
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 4:00 pm

Does the hard landing experienced has something to do with that 767 has forward tilted landing gears instead of backward tilted landing gears found in other a/c types such as 747 ,777, 330, 340?

r panda
 
ua777222
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 4:14 pm

I think Red Panda is right. The other a/c slide onto the runway as to the 767 which stubs it's gear onto the runway. Great observation Red Panda!

Thanks again!

UA777222
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Trolley Dolley
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:24 pm

Pre Sept 11 I was lucky enough to be up front for quite a few 767 landings on QF. The pilots say that they like to plant the plane down firmly to activate the autobrakes etc and avoid aquaplaning on wet runways.
 
flykal
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:37 pm

Pre Sept 11 I was lucky enough to be up front for quite a few 767 landings on QF. The pilots say that they like to plant the plane down firmly to activate the autobrakes etc and avoid aquaplaning on wet runways.

This is not specific to the 767. Landing technique is determined by conditions...not passenger expectations!  Smile
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NYCAAer
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:36 pm

It also depends on who's landing the plane. Fly with a pilot who used to be in the Navy and you'll land as if you're stopping short on an aircraft carrier. After a landing like that, I'll go up to the cockpit and ask, "Did you fly in the Navy?" He'll unvariably say yes!

The 767 fishtails a lot. I've had some landings on the 767 that have been really smooth, and others where you feel as if you've been shot down. The smoothest landings I've had have been on the 777, although once in my four years of working on the 777, I had a rough landing, but I attribute it to the first officer who was landing.

I haven't been on a 757 in a long time- I'm a widebody kind of guy- so I don't remember what landing are like on the plane.
 
SafetyDude
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:17 pm

I have had hard and soft landings on 767s. My only hard landings were when the flight was a trans-con or crossing the Atlantic and my only soft landings were doing flights like LGA-ATL or ATL-MCO.

 Smile
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boo25
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:36 am

I'm cabin crew on the 767-300ER, and i often sit at doors 3 (above the gear) for takeoff/landing.

It does have an unusually large 'thump' on landing, and many pilots have said it IS because of the forward tiliting gear.
As the front gear touches, it brings the rear tyres down very rapidly behind it!

I have witnessed ceiling panels come down on a couple of occasions and even the odd O2 mask!!

Strangely , if you sin the flight deck for landing , the sensation is quite the opposite!
The noise and 'touchdown' seem to be completely 'soaked up' by the long fuselage and even a hardish landing feels very soft up front.
From this point of view , it may be hard for the flight crew to use their senses to determine how good/bad their landing was!!

We took it into Aberdeen one night , very foggy, full load, small runway with terrain - that was a hell of a thump  Wow!
 
aamd11
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:41 am

I flew on 2 767s; BA LHR-PRH and back.

our landing in PRH wasnt exactly soft, but not as hard as some landings I've had. Landing back in LHR 4 days later again seemed quite soft.

Hard landings tho... I think the hardest landing I ever experienced was a BD flight from Milan Linate to LHR on a 733
We got above 10 or 20 feet above the runway, and then we floated and we just seemed to be holding the same altitude for about 5 seconds, then suddenly the plane dropped onto the runway. We hit terra ferma so hard that at least 10 overhead bins flung open.
 
JeffDCA
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:47 am

It is indeed due to the landing gear tilt. Apparently it was discovered that upon landing the 767 had a tendancy to pitch up, so Boeing installing a forward tilting landing gear that helps pitch the aircraft down. It does however result in a harder landing than other aircraft. There is a post on this with further details somewhere in the tech/ops forum.

I think the A330 has the smoothest touchdown around. Incredible to watch every time.

The pilots say that they like to plant the plane down firmly to activate the autobrakes etc and avoid aquaplaning on wet runways.

That's a procedure relative to every aircraft type, not just the 76. It's known as a positive touch down, and is done, as you say, in wet conditions to make sure the wheels penetrate any standing water to avoid aquaplaning.

Cheers,

Jeff
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wilax
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:13 am

If we are talking about roughness felt during a normal', smooth glide to the runway and not just a hard drop out of the sky, I would argue that the deep forward tilt of the main carriage is the culprit. There is no other commercial jet, including the A310 and Tu154, with such a pronounced forward tilt of the main landing gear. Such a tilt would actually worsen the smoothness of touchdown simply by the fact that even with good flare of the airframe right before touchdown, the front wheels of the main bogies will contact the ground first which will actuate rearward force on the entire strut assembly. Then. as the gear begins to compress, there will be forward force on the strut until the rear wheels make contact again reversing the force of rolling friction. That is three distinct jolts to the main gear at touchdown in rapid succession. That has got to affect the smoothness of landing in a 767...

Just a theory...
 
aamd11
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:32 am

I've had a single A330 flight and I have to say it was a very sweet landing, I wasn't sure we'd even touched down until the reverse thrust had started to slow us down.

although I can't recall a landing in a 777 that was far from smooth, they've all been pretty good, except maybe a flight into YUL in the Wintertime, the landing wasn't really harsh, but the speed with which the plane was brought to a stop was really quite something to feel. Must have had everything out to stop us quickly... it seems they wanted to taxi off the active as soon as possible.

I think it's loads of fun when they do that on landing, you come in nice and smoothly, then they use everything they can to stop you. You can kinda feel the inertia as the plane slows down so dramatically and you're body is still going foward (thank god for seatbelts  Nuts)
 
texasflyer
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:34 am

How different are the landing gears of the 757 and 767? Because the difference in landing was huge.
We confide in our strength, without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. Thomas Jefferson
 
texasflyer
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:38 am

Is the 767-400 any smoother on landings? I've only flown on the 200 and 300 series. I was wondering if they managed to improve the landings in the 400s.
We confide in our strength, without boasting of it; we respect that of others, without fearing it. Thomas Jefferson
 
OB1504
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:54 am

I'd have to say that it was just bad luck. I've had the hardest landing of my life on a 763, (some oxygen masks came down and the marjority of the overhead baggage compartments opened) and I've had a landing so soft I didn't even know we were on the ground (it was night and I was in the middle seat) until the reversers activated, and both flights were with LAN. I guess it just depends on the pilot.
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:25 am

Thanks for bringing up this topic. I have always wondered if I was just on crack or something but I have always experienced the roughest landings in 767s...either -200s or -300s.
 
OB1504
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:53 am

I've found that the landings in the 767 tend to be softer if you sit in the middle seats around the emergency exits since the seats are right over the main landing gear.  Smile
 
AJ
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:58 am

I've managed some greasers and I've managed some clunkers in the 767, it's certainly not as predictable as a 747!

Approaching the flare the aircraft is very speed dependent, flare with a bleeding airspeed and she will stop flying before you intended. We are told this is due to the supercritical design of the wing. In addition with not enough weight on the wheels spoiler rise can dump the aircraft down the oleos with a spectacular crunch, so what would be a greaser beomes a clunker.

We all love a challenge on the 76'.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:34 am

Hey flykal & others:

how many A320s have landing gear like that in that picture? that is completely new to me. proved wrong! slam  Smile

later
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Boeing4ever
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:39 pm

I believe only AI ordered A320s with double-bogey main gear.

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wilax
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:27 pm

The 757's gear carriage is alot smaller and the bogie tilts slightly the other way, the logical way.

The 8-wheel main gear was an option on the A320 for weight sensitive third-world runways. I believe it was optional on 727's and 737's as well... Not many takers though...
 
Erwin972
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RE: 767 Landings

Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:03 am


Talking about hard landings in a 767:


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brons2
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RE: 767 Landings

Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:56 am

On my recent European trip, I had a very, very soft landing at AMS in the DL 763 (in wet conditions no less), and a very firm landing at CVG, also on the 763.
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WindowSeat
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RE: 767 Landings

Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:57 am




if you want to watch a smooth 767 landing (at least it appears to be) go to

http://www.voyageratlantic.com/clips


cheers




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RCS763AV
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RE: 767 Landings

Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:05 am

Flown twice on 767. BOG-JFK, and FLL-BOG. Really smooth takeohh, hardass landing.
 
clipperno1
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:10 pm

The infamous TACA 767 video shows the effect of aquaplaning after a rather smooth landing (judiging from the video angle), althouhg many other things contributed to this accident.
I've talked to pilots and general opinion I got from a few chats, is that firm landings are more desired, as you quicker gain control over the plane on terra firma.
I (non-pilot) see it that way: if 100+ tons of steel and cargo touch down with abut 250km/h, I feel much safer when I feel a firm "thud" upon landing, rather than feeling the a/c just "kissing" the rwy.
Plus it keeps my fellow citizens from applauding  Smokin cool
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SlamClick
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RE: 767 Landings

Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:49 pm

As JeffDCA said, it is procedure to touch down firmly. Those greasejobs may be fun, and might please the passengers but they are not as safe, and it is just that simple. Positive ground spoiler activation and antiskid arming are more important than finesse.

That said, there may be another factor. In my time in long-haul like the 767 I averaged on landing about every 13 hours of flight time. In the 737 I averaged a landing every 2.5 hours. Lots more practice.

Also, Texasflyer as 767s make thousands of landings every day, eight is no sampling at all. Make a hundred or so and see what you think about it.

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AAR90
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:10 am

I think that the forward tilt of the 767 landing gear (made this way to fit into the bays) could be the reason for the harder touchdowns.

Bingo!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy According to Boeing engineers the forward tilt causes the initial tire/wheel contact to be felt throughout more of the airframe than a rearward tilted boogie. Pax perception is a slightly more "firm" landing than "normal" on a more consistent basis (y'all can figure out what that means to each of ya). IMHO (10yrs flying 767/757), a "grease job" in the 762 was extremely difficult and came more with luck than any exceptional pilot skill. Slightly more probable in a 763 (Boeing engineers say its the higher thrust engines on slightly higher weight acft), and 90%+ probability flying the 752.

Fly with a pilot who used to be in the Navy and you'll land as if you're stopping short on an aircraft carrier.

I disagree. In 17+ years I've never had a single airliner landing (by any pilot) that is anywhere close to any CV landing I experienced (800+). OTOH, there have been quite a few firm touchdowns, but none that qualified as "hard." I've had many I'm not proud of, but will stand in the doorway and take my "lumps" as appropriate.

After a landing like that, I'll go up to the cockpit and ask, "Did you fly in the Navy?" He'll unvariably say yes!

I've heard many ex-USAF, USA (helo drivers) and civilian pilots say the same thing. It is just a simple way of explaining away why "I screwed up." Previous flying background has little to do with the quality of any particular airliner landing (or anything else involved with flying airliners).
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oklso
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:38 am

While interesting, all the listed reasons for the tilt on the B767 landing gear are speculation. Boeing designed the gear to tilt, actually its driven to that position, so it will fit properly in the wheel wells.

Smooth landings are a function of pilot technique, or lack there of, meteorological conditions, and luck. Some are spot on, others are clunckers...a lot like life.
 
AJ
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:51 am

An answer we recieved from a Boeing rep for the reason the gear tilts forwards not backwards (both ways would fit in the bays) is that forwards is a lower drag position, remembering that the 767 was designed with fuel efficiency in mind.

Anyway, as I said, it adds to the challenge of flying the 767, and now that high cycle domestic flying is the order of the day if we get a firm landing we don't have to wait long to have another go!
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: 767 Landings

Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:12 pm

While the main bogie of the 767 withe the forward tilt logically should make a harder landing, do not forget when comparing that to the sister, the 757, she is a much lighter bird, but technically quite similar to the 67.
Also a 320 landing or what else cannot be compared in here.
The weight of the plane pulls it down, so landing a CRJ you do not hear too much engine noise, but when a 744 comes to land, you hear them throttle up to flare more, to compensate for the high gravity and sink rate.
Also the landing reference speeds are quite different, do not forget.
But still, the forward tilt technically seems to be the cause for a tougher landing than on other birds.
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RHSNYC
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RE: 767 Landings

Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:07 pm

WOW! I've been cabin crew on the 767 for about 15 years. NOW I know why the landings always feel like a "controlled crash"!
 
IL76
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RE: 767 Landings

Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:42 pm

Just as an illustration of a 767's hard landing:

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Photo © Eduard Brantjes


I've not experienced any hard landings on a 767 yet though.

[Edited 2004-08-17 11:46:05]

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