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n229nw
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No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:53 pm

Hi all,

Please forgive me if this has been answered (I couldn't find it from a search of this forum), or if it is a stupid question...

Are there certain aircraft, weather or load conditions in which the flaps are not set on takeoff? Many years ago I was on an Air France A300 Paris to LHR, sitting over the wings, and I noticed that we took off with no visible flap deployment. I was actually scared at the time, since this was just after the NW MD-80 crash in Detroit caused by flaps in wrong position on takeoff....

Anyway, we took off fine. And this never happened to me again on any other flight I can remember... till about 13 years later, I took a Lufthansa A300 from Berlin to Frankfurt. Once again, no visible flap on takeoff.

Both times this was an A300, with a full pax load, but a very low fuel load (short flights). Anyone have an explanation for me?

Thanks.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
AJ
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:13 pm

Slats only takeoffs (no flaps) are approved on several widebody types, including the A300-600 and the Boeing 767-200.

Slats only departures increase the takeoff distance required, but improve the second segment climb performance.

Cheers!
 
BMAbound
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:48 pm

I believe the Fokker 100 does the same?

johan
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Starlionblue
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:11 pm

Indeed it does.
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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Saleem
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:13 pm

This was also my questions and answered by an A300 Pilot, that A300 uses no flaps on takeoff. Further, one thing, for which I need confirmation that the Airbus A300 is the plane which does not have flexibility in its wings. So, A300's wings do not bend on Takeoff, so you cannot see wing flex on A300. Is it so??
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:16 pm

The A300 wings bend, like all aircraft wings. It's a matter of degree.

You could (in theory) make aircraft wings much more solid but this would necessitate more material and thus a heavier wing. Better to make them flex. If wings did not flex they would break.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SlamClick
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:05 am

Think I remember seeing "NO-FLAP TAKEOFF OK" stencilled on the upper side of the wing, so that it could be read out the passenger windows. Could this have been on an F-100? I assumed that it was to keep people from ringing the f/a calls or jumping up when takeoff started without flaps down.



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n229nw
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:39 am

Thanks...

Interesting. I wonder what factors allow one type of plane to take off this way and another not...The Fokker plane is obviously quite physically different from the 767 and A300...
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:28 am

The A300 used an early supercritical airfoil. This was so much more efficient than predicted that several flap settings were deleted before entry into service.

My guess is that the F100 airfoil was bult so as not to need flaps on takeoff. IIRC it doesn't have slats either.

I would speculate that the fact that the 767-200 can and the -300 cannot do a no flaps takeoff depends on the relative weights of the airframe. Since the wing can support the -300 (and with a mod the -400) it can lift the -200 with relatively more ease, thus the no flaps takeoffs.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AJ
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:07 am

Starlionblue, it is more to do with the takeoff pitch attitude required, the -300 is geometry limited due to the extended fuselage so cannot achieve the required takeoff pitch.

A Boeing 767-200 with flap 1 requires a liftoff attitude of 11.1 degrees with a tailstrike attitude of 13.1 degrees. The -300 has a tailstrike attitude of 9.6 degrees, so you can see the problem!
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:27 pm

Starlionblue, it is more to do with the takeoff pitch attitude required, the -300 is geometry limited due to the extended fuselage so cannot achieve the required takeoff pitch.

Didn't think of that. Makes sense of course.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
jfkaua
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:42 pm

hmmm whats the 767-400 tailstrike and liftoff degree measures? and how do they fix it?
 
Hirnie
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:21 am

How about tailstrike comparing the A310 to the A300?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:43 pm

Tailstrikes (or engine strikes for Concorde) are possible with basically any tricycle gear aircraft. So they put pitch restrictions in place on takeoff and landing. Pilots are trainable  Big grin

There is also a tailskid just in case.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ManBurkert
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:40 pm

Extending of flaps has a similar affect as increasing pitch by the cost of higher drag. For an efficient flight its mandatory to keep the drag as low as possible.
The other factor is the speed during t/o. When the Aircraft can reach the needed speed on the runway then every plane can start without extracted flaps.
But that means the limitation is the runway length, and also the tires are limited in their maximum speed.

Just my five cent.

Manfred
Manfred Burkert (ZSAM)
 
brons2
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:04 am

hmmm whats the 767-400 tailstrike and liftoff degree measures? and how do they fix it?

Taller landing gear. Boeing borrowed some engineers from McD, pre-merger, to accomplish this change.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
Max Q
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:39 am

767-400

Tailstrike is at 9.4 degrees, oleos extended ours have hit at 9.1.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
MarS
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:18 pm

@Saleem: Just wanted to add a nice picture where you can see the wing flex of an A330.


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[Edited 2004-09-21 09:18:40]
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:56 am

In CRW, I know that the dash 8 100's ad 200's rarely use flaps, and if they do so they retract them shortly and i mean very shortly after liftoff. I think they come up with the gear.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: No Flaps Takeoff On Airbus 300?

Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:20 am

@Saleem: Just wanted to add a nice picture where you can see the wing flex of an A330.

In the great A.nut tradition of adding pics at the least excuse Big grin


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