OnlyWay2Fly
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Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:16 pm

In several movies with airliner takeoff cockpit scenes, the throttles are advanced at takeoff by 2 people....the pilot flying and the other pilot, or the pilot and flight engineer. I've seen this enacted in scenes of both 2 and 4 engined aircraft.

Is this the real practice, and if so, why?

(did a search for previous posts, no results)
Alas poor Western, I knew them well!
 
sean1234
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:21 pm

I have a video of a real Cathay Pacific flight, and throttles on takeoff were advanced by both people sitting up front.
 
sean1234
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:22 pm

It was a 747 by the way.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:23 pm

If the Pilot Flying requests that his officer assists him, that officer will take that action. I have met pilots that prefer this method. You won't see it on Narrowbodies much though, but mainly on widebodies.

It will probably happen if the Pilot Flying is the F/O, the Capt. still likes to have control over his aircraft to an extent.

BTW -- I'm not 100% certain, but doesn't this belong in Tech Ops?
Puhdiddle
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:27 pm

as far as I can tell, the PF handled the throttle, the PNF the power or something like that, but only saw it on movies with classics, like the 742, with extra power levers next to throttle...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
7574EVER
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:38 pm

As far as I know, the typical practice is for the pilot flying to begin advancing the throttles on his/her own. The pilot not flying will then guide the PF's hand to the proper N1 setting. This practice allows the PF to keep looking outside and down the runway rather than looking at the engine instruments.
Right rudder....Right rudder...Come on, more right rudder....Right rudder......Aw forget it, I quit!!
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:01 pm

How about aircraft equipped with an f/e station? Don't some of those have throttle controls at the f/e stations?? Where does control of the throttles stand then??

Greg
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FredT
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:39 pm

Psst!

Only reciprocal engines have throttles. Turbine engines have power levers...  Big grin

The word “throttle” comes from the fact that with it, you are throttling the engine. On a reciprocal, you control engine power through a valve in the intake manifold. This is not the case for a turbine.

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
miamiair
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:07 pm

One set or two, depends on the Captain. After the power is set, the pilot flying will keep his hand on the power levers until V1 is reached, at that point the hand is removed from the power levers. This is to prevent rejecting a takeoff past V1. Supposedly, once you pass V1, you are "Going Flying," even if the engine catches fire, fails, etc. Unless of course you are taking off from JFK's longest runway, and common sense dictates staying on the ground.

I have heard from the "old" guys, guys that were F/Es in the days of the DC6s, -7s, Connies, and StratoCruisers: "The pilots flew the airplane, but the engines were mine." I couldn't say for sure but one once told me, he actually set the power for the whole flight, T/O, Climb, Cruise, App and even Go-arounds; that seems a bit too far fetched to me, but sometimes, you never know...
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
LY744
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:17 pm

How many hands does it take to move a B-52s power levers?  Big grin


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
miamiair
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:49 pm

B-52: They are configured that one can do it.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
vc10
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:12 am


On the " Connies " the engines are the Flight Engineers, with the Pilots only operating them for the flare and in reverse when the aircraft is on the ground, Up to V1 the flying pilot will have his hands on the throttles , but all control is with the Flight Engineer

On the " Bristol Britannia" [turbo prop ] the pilots never touched the throttles with the Flight Engineer controlling the throttles at all times even for selecting reverse

On the "VC-10 " the flying pilot opened the throttles for take- off, but the Flight Engineer would trim them for final power setting. After V1 the throttles were all the flight engineer's [ he had his own set ] until just before the landing flare. The Flight Engineer was the cruise auto throttle.

Concorde really shared between pilot and auto-throttle, but during supersonic descent the Flight Engineer controlled the engine speed reductions so that he could monitor the intakes and so prevent an engine surge

On Jets with a F/E I think it was normal for the F/E to have his hands on the lever's spurs so as to trim the engine settings during the take off run. The pilots hand being removed after V1.

Throttles or Thrust Levers , well they have always been called throttles on British aircraft with the term Thrust Levers being seen as an American term for Throttles on Jets

Anyway don't worry be Happy Little vc10
 
Bellerophon
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:50 am

Vc10

...On the " Connies " the engines are the Flight Engineers...

Said with a certain amount of feeling, it would appear! Big grin Big grin

Any...er...amusing...little stories you would care to share with us?

Just to liven up the next dinner! Big grin

Best regards

Bellerophon
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:24 am

Supposedly, once you pass V1, you are "Going Flying," even if the engine catches fire, fails, etc. Unless of course you are taking off from JFK's longest runway, and common sense dictates staying on the ground.

A long runway will simply make V1 come later. In the extreme case, V1=Vr, meaning you are not commited to takeoff until you pull back on the stick/yoke.

In actual practice, there is V1, which means commited to flying, and a previous call (normally the "80 knot call"). If anything happens before the 80 knot call, the plane stops. After the 80 knot call (but before V1 obviously), the plane is moving so fast that there are certain risks involved in stopping the plane, so typically the pilots will only reject takeoff for serious events (fire, engine failure, ugly F/As...)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:28 am

Not called a throttle?

Why is it called a Throttle Quadrant then on a B744?

Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
vc10
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:40 am

Bellerophon
I do not know if I have any interesting stories, as my experience on Connies came after it had finished with commercial aviation, and had become an airshow aircraft. In fact the Connie is my latest aircraft after a lifetime on jets as a F/E and it was the first American aircraft that I had ever had anything to do with in a 38 year career in aviation.
Now, I thought that I had got most of the terminology straight such as
Flashlight for Torch , or Wrench for spanner etc but got really caught out when asked to get a pair of DYKES !!!! All came clear when he explained what he wanted them for, and I informed him that they are called side cutters . It was then that he educated me in a few more American colourful words , which it is probably best not to repeat here
Jet engines were I found just a numbers game to start them, but I soon found out that those big old radials are a completely different thing.
The procedure that is good for cold starting is useless when the engine is hot and if used when the engine is hot can be quite enlightening, so much so that it usually gets the tower quite excited and wanting to know if you want the assistance of the fire service. Also no two engines are the same to start either and they love to show you up to be a big idiot, by being difficult to start when there are people watching. I tell people they are very like females!!!!!

At one airshow a gent came up and informed me that he had 10,000 hrs as a F/E on Connies with the US Guard. This ensured an immediate invitation to relive old times and sit back in the F/E seat. As soon as he sat down you could tell he was a Connie F/E, as his right leg was stuck out side ways to brace himself because the F/E sits sideways on a Connie. After a while I informed him it would cost him to sit in the seat and he asked me how much , and I informed him that it was not in cash , but if he had 10,000 hrs could he tell me how to start these Bl***y engines . He laughed and said in 10,000 hrs he never really learnt and just put it all down to luck. However he did explain his method and it was some of the the best advice I have had.
A real great experience meeting loads of nice people , but you soon realise why the airlines were glad to have jets, what with each engine using 1 to2 gallons of oil per hour all of which has to be replaced on the ground via a 4 gallon bucket whilst standing on top of the wing . Over wing refuelling in all weathers and we are normally talking of 1000 of gals per time. None of that Cessna 20 gals stuff . Nearly forgot spark plugs , but that is another story

After being involved with these big old piston engines I will never again think that a jet airliner is dirty. It is true " Jets are for kids " Only joking honest
Be happy little vc10


 
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rg828
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:08 am

A friend of mine was a commander on U.S. Navy EC-121s, and he said that he mostly did'nt touch the throttles at all - he just called power settings to the FE over his shoulder - until the flare.

I cant remember the expression he gave me for the settings, they were in some type of unit, I cant recall at all. Something like "half this," "quarter that," wish I could remember.
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
AAR90
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:09 pm

Every airline/operator has their own specific cockpit procedures so there is no one-rule that covers all situations. OTOH, as very general guidelines you can consider the following:

2-crew cockpits... the pilot flying advances the power levers to near the takeoff power setting and the pilot not flying and/or autothrottle will fine tune to appropriate power setting allowing the pilot flying to concentrate on acft control.

3-crew cockpits... the pilot flying advances the power levers to near the takeoff power setting and the FE and/or autothrottle fine tunes the setting allowing both pilots to concentrate on acft control.

In either case, the person not flying the plane will continue to "guard" the power levers to protect against accidental power retardation and/or "over-boost."

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:20 pm

Actually, the difference is between new generation aircraft and older ones, those with out FADECS or EEC.

The new Boeings or Airbus, you advance the power until the engines are stable and then hit the TOGA button. The auto throttles do the rest. On older aircraft, such as the 747 classic, the throttles are advanced to about 1.1 EPR and then the F/E advances the throttles with the Capt (or some airlines the PF) holding on also. The F/E announces the power set then the Capt (or PF at some airlines) keeps his hands on the throttles until V1.

To comment on a post earlier about aborting and common sense. I can assure you a 747-400 at MTOW is much easier to handle in the air with an emergency than an abort at V1.
Fly fast, live slow
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:46 pm

On many cockpit jumpseat flights I´ve observed the following procedure: PF sets the throttles to stabilise and hits the TOGA button. The captain, even if NPF hold his hands over the throttles until V1, because in the end he has the final responsibility to abort a take off.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:13 am

The engineer can control the throttles using the "extentions" which look like reverser levers buck behind the throttles. 741/2/3? has these.

See the photo below. The things that look like extra throttle levers or T/R levers are the F/E's control. Front front to back first is the T/R, then the normal throttle handles and then the F/E handles.


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Arjen Sas

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videns
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:17 pm

JAGFlyer: You better start reading all the older (AND newer) posts on this forum... If you're lucky, you'll figure out where the flight engineer actually sits....
Travel? Why would i travel if I can watch it on TV?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Tue Oct 19, 2004 5:43 pm

You guys must have seen a F/E seat only on ground, with him facing his panel to do the paperwork. On most airplanes the F/E can turn his seat to face forward (actually the position required for take off and landing). Then he will sit directly aft of the center pedestal, with his panel to the right. On older prop planes, like the DC-4., DC_6, DC-7 and Lockheed Electra (also older Russian types like IL-62), he would sit the whole time behind the center pedestal, facing forward, no seperate F/E panel there.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:20 am

lol Videns, I know where the F/E sits. MD11Engineer is correct, the seats can move I believe.
Support the beer and soda can industry, your recycle old airplanes!
 
videns
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RE: Throttle Advance - How Many Hands?

Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:38 pm

Are you guys telling me that the flight engineer on a 747-Classic operates the engines from the same throttle quadrant as the pilots???????? If that is the case, I apologize for my previous post, but it certainly doesn't make any sense... wouldn't the FE be totally in the way???
Travel? Why would i travel if I can watch it on TV?

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