futureuapilot
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Super Tug

Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:03 am

Hey everyone, just a quick question, what is the advantage to using a Super Tug as opposed to a regular tug. The only thing i could think of is to releave stress on the aircraft's front landing gear, but it's only a guess. I got to see one of these at IAH and was facinated by them! Thanks for the replys!
-Sam

 Big grin
The Pilot is the highest form of life on Earth!
 
air2gxs
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RE: Super Tug

Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:24 pm

Much more control over the whole towing operation.

Try searching the database.
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Super Tug

Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:51 pm

SuperTug can tow faster than a towbar. Makes it better for long tows, like gate to hangar.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Super Tug

Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:59 pm

SuperTugs (which don't use a bar) also have better traction in slippery conditions, which explains why they are so prevalent in Scandinavia.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
cancidas
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RE: Super Tug

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:53 pm

the supertugs are also faster, as mentioned before. that makes them better for use on longer distance tows. they are also of european manufacture, meaning that they are expensive here in the states. there are certain smalled one made here in the states, but not of the size needed for a full 747.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Super Tug

Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:04 pm

Wouldn't Pushback be more easier controlled with Towbarless Tugs rather than a tug with a towbar.Whereas Towing would be similiar apart from speed.
regds
HAWK
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
cancidas
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RE: Super Tug

Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:11 pm

pushbacks are basically the same, with or without a towbar. it boils down to the comfort of the tug driver. those that use bars more often will be more comfortable with them. those who don't wont.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:54 pm

pushbacks are basically the same, with or without a towbar. it boils down to the comfort of the tug driver. those that use bars more often will be more comfortable with them. those who don't wont.

Well, not to nit pick they're actually the opposite of one another as far as steering, and tow bar setups needing a little more finesse. I will agree that someone who uses a tow bar more often will be more comfortable than someone like me who is used to a TBL pushback. I do think that TBL setups are easier to master though, they're pretty straight foreward (no pun intended).
 
EZYAirbus
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RE: Super Tug

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:43 pm

These tugs are basically the nose wheel of the aircraft and can tug a 747 at speeds upto 20mph


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Glenn Eldridge



Here is a TBL400 taken at Heathrow about to be serviced, so much better to work on that the usual towbar tugs!

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
Tiger119
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RE: Super Tug

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:20 pm

"Here is a TBL400 taken at Heathrow about......."

- Are there "Super Tugs" that are smaller than this one? I seem to remember seeing one at MDW a week ago or so that was a smaller than this one?
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
 
EZYAirbus
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RE: Super Tug

Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:52 pm

Yeah there are smaller ones called TBL280s they usually only take aircraft no bigger than the 767.

Glenn
http://www.glenneldridgeaviation.com
 
SATL382G
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RE: Super Tug

Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:40 am

Here's a sales video for one of these tugs. Found it while looking for something else...

Good video!

http://www.tld-gse.com/videos/
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
Tiger119
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RE: Super Tug

Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:42 pm

"Yeah there are smaller ones called TBL280s they usually only take aircraft no bigger than the 767."

- I may be off base here but the one I saw at MDW was pushing a S340B back (and pretty quickly as well) a distance farther than a normal push back would be. It was a pretty small tug.
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
 
srbmod
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:22 am

Super Tugs, and their smaller cousins only have one pivot point, and that's the nose gear itself; tow bars have two pivot points, the nose gear and where the towbar hooks up to the pushbag unit (be it a tug or a tractor). You end up having to do a lot more corrections using a towbar, and if you're not careful, you've got an accident.
 
SDFOH
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:38 pm

Do they come smaller? Why yes they do, as seen here in SEA


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Photo © Chris Coduto
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Photo © Ben Wang




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Photo © Joe Corrigan



Just kidding. Same principle just alot smaller
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: Super Tug

Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:16 pm

They come even smaller than that. In PDX they also use the stand up ones which are considerably smaller. We only use the larger ones in SEA. You can do killer doughnuts in them though.
 
Tg 747-300
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RE: Super Tug

Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:48 pm

Another advantage with the Super Tug is that during daylight operations, there is no need for a "brake operator" in the plane. Therefore, one person is enough for moving a plane from lets say the hangar to the gate.

With a regular Tug and towbar, there is a slight posibility the plane will loosen, so a brake operator is required in the cockpit.

These are the rules at ARN (Stockholm), so i don't know if the Super tug has this advantage at other airports.

Anyway, for how long has the super tug been around?
Here in Norway, i belive it became common 4-5 years ago.

All this said, i personaly dislike the super tug. Maybe becaus its so tiny, and don't bring back the momories of the good old days. (not that i have experienced those days though).

tg 747-300
intentionally left blank
 
SATL382G
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RE: Super Tug

Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:51 pm

Tg 747-300,

How do you handle parking brake release in the aircraft with only one person?
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
Tg 747-300
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:28 am

SATL328G: probably a good question, and honestly I don't know. I just read an interview with a towing guy from ARN who said that when using super tugs, there was no need for people in the cockpit.

Maybe because many planes just are resting on their chocks, and not using the p-brake. Just read something about that in another thread.

tg 747-300
intentionally left blank
 
Klaus
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:14 am

SATL382G: How do you handle parking brake release in the aircraft with only one person?

Would it really be a problem?

- Pick up the nose wheel with the tug.
- Set the stopping brakes of the tug.
- Release the parking brakes of the aircraft.
- Remove chocks.
- Get into the tug and get moving.
- At your destination, reverse the sequence.

Looks like a little work, but probably not really difficult even for a single person.
 
airbusA346
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RE: Super Tug

Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:33 am

For pictures of Towbarless Tugs go to:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/104451/

airbusA346  Smile  Big thumbs up
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HAWK21M
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RE: Super Tug

Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:48 pm

Another advantage with the Super Tug is that during daylight operations, there is no need for a "brake operator" in the plane. Therefore, one person is enough for moving a plane from lets say the hangar to the gate.

Woudn't it be mandatory to have someone in the Cockpt during a Towing/Pushback operation.It is out here.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tg 747-300
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RE: Super Tug

Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:24 pm

Nobody who knows when the first supe tug was deliverd?

tg 747-300
intentionally left blank
 
wbmech
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:22 am

With the super-tug no brake rider is required. In fact, at CO they have an aircraft move team that performs all of the super tug moves independent of maintenance.
 
Venus6971
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:27 pm

Used one of these tugs for trial period on E-3's, we found it much easier to put the acft in a tighter space especially for rookie drivers who had a hard time parallel parking their own car. The only draw back was a low draw bar strength of the model we were using and it was worthless on snow and ice
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:15 pm

at CO they have an aircraft move team that performs all of the super tug moves independent of maintenance.
How many team members are required to move one aircraft & what are their locations.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
atlamt
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:05 am

Hi Mel,

Here in ATL Delta has several supertug crews. Each is a two man crew. One brake rider and one to operate the tug. At night after the ramp agents leave they also have a crew which travels around in a van to assist as wingwalkers when coming into or out of a gate.
Fwd to MCO and Placard
 
Matt72033
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting Wbmech (Reply 23):
With the super-tug no brake rider is required. In fact, at CO they have an aircraft move team that performs all of the super tug moves independent of maintenance.

i find this very hard to believe!!
so what happens when you get an APU fire?
 
A342
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:03 am

Super tugs are also more economical as there´s no need to put weights on it, the nosewheel is enough. It saves you fuel.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:48 am

Currently out here Theres not a single SuperTug in the Entire country.Which I find Surprising.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
charliecossie
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:42 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 27):
so what happens when you get an APU fire?

How could the APU catch fire if it isn't running? Why can't a "towing crew" member be trained in APU operation?

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Woudn't it be mandatory to have someone in the Cockpt during a Towing/Pushback operation.It is out here.

Why is it mandatory out there? Jobs for the boys? What can the person in the cockpit do? Before answering, assume the aircraft is unpowered.
 
Matt72033
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:26 pm

Quoting Charliecossie (Reply 30):
How could the APU catch fire if it isn't running? Why can't a "towing crew" member be trained in APU operation?

The APU does need to run though.....well i'm considering for the 747 here. you need hydraulic pressure to tow! therefore, you either need electrical powered pumps running or air powered pumps running. either of which, require the APU to be running

Well the towing crew member could be trained in APU operation, but he'd need to be in the flight deck to pull the fire handle!
 
DC8FriendShip
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:51 pm

Quoting Charliecossie (Reply 30):
Before answering, assume the aircraft is unpowered.

They can still stop the plane-provided the brake pressure has not been exhausted.
Come fly the Friendly Skies of United
 
charliecossie
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:47 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 31):
The APU does need to run though.....well i'm considering for the 747 here. you need hydraulic pressure to tow!

No you don't.

Quoting DC8FriendShip (Reply 32):
They can still stop the plane-provided the brake pressure has not been exhausted.

Why would that person need to apply the brakes? You're still thinking "tow bar". The towbar-less tugs don't have that problem.
 
Matt72033
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RE: Super Tug

Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:43 pm

Quoting Charliecossie (Reply 33):
No you don't

yes you do! ever heard of body gear steering?
 
charliecossie
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RE: Super Tug

Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 34):
yes you do! ever heard of body gear steering?

More than you can imagine!
Body gear steering not required for towing. Hydraulic pressure not required for towing.
Don't argue when you don't know the facts.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Super Tug

Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:42 am

How often do APUs catch fire when towing? I would hope it is a rare event.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
charliecossie
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RE: Super Tug

Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:29 am

I've seen two APUs go "pop" in 21 years in the civil business. One was a 737 sitting at the gate with drivers in the cockpit and the other was a DC10, also at the gate etc.....
In each case, there was no external fire.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Super Tug

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:34 pm

Quoting Charliecossie (Reply 30):
Before answering, assume the aircraft is unpowered.

Agreed.If theres no power its a different thing.But Regulations out here insist that a person is in the cockpit during towing ops for Radio communication & Brakes.[Even Accumulator pr] It may differ at other places.

Quoting Charliecossie (Reply 35):
Hydraulic pressure not required for towing.

What are the chances of the Aircraft slipping from the Super Tug.Whats holding the NLG firmly.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Super Tug

Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:14 am

There a severe short term memory problem here, but what the hell, I'll play along.

Quoting Air2gxs (Reply 1):
Try searching the database.

Yes, but more specifically: Tow Barless Attachment (by HAWK21M Oct 17 2005 in Tech Ops)
maybe pay more attention to reply #45, FutureUApilot, you state that you have one at work. Do you use it, I don't know. But you must understand the basic advantages of it compared to a conventional tractor/towbar combo.

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 31):
The APU does need to run though.....



Quoting Charliecossie (Reply 33):
No you don't.



Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 34):
yes you do!


Not always. Some of these tractors have on board GPU's. So you can power hyd and nav/anti-collision beacons. Some aircraft have 'Tow' switches in flt deck to power low voltage nav lights off the main ships battery, specifically for, you guessed it, towing.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 38):
What are the chances of the Aircraft slipping from the Super Tug.

Virtually impossible unless severe hyd/mechanical failure of tractor.
Also, from the previously stated post, reply #54: With enough willpower and speed, you can still jack-knife.AC did it a while back.

Yet again, I can't resist:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29):
Currently out here Theres not a single SuperTug in the Entire country

Tow Barless Attachment (by HAWK21M Oct 17 2005 in Tech Ops)
see reply #78.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Super Tug

Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:14 pm

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 39):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29):
Currently out here Theres not a single SuperTug in the Entire country

Tow Barless Attachment (by HAWK21M Oct 17 2005 in Tech Ops)
see reply #78.

Its def surprising.If there are so many benifits by using a Supertug then why wasn't it ever considered out here.Many AI could have.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Matt72033
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RE: Super Tug

Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:04 pm

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 39):
Not always. Some of these tractors have on board GPU's. So you can power hyd and nav/anti-collision beacons. Some aircraft have 'Tow' switches in flt deck to power low voltage nav lights off the main ships battery, specifically for, you guessed it, towing.

ah ok, didnt realise this, our AMM states that hyd sys 1+4 need to be pressuriesed for brakes and body gear steering!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 39):
Some of these tractors have on board GPU's. So you can power hyd and nav/anti-collision beacons. Some aircraft have 'Tow' switches in flt deck to power low voltage nav lights off the main ships battery, specifically for, you guessed it, towing.

Which Aircraft Type are you referring to.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 41):
our AMM states that hyd sys 1+4 need to be pressuriesed

I remember the '47 has the Air Driven Pumps but does it have electric pumps/ptu that power 1 +4?

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 42):
Which Aircraft Type are you referring to

A313 originally from LH, but not all A313 have it, it must be a customer option/mod.
 
Matt72033
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 43):
I remember the '47 has the Air Driven Pumps but does it have electric pumps/ptu that power 1 +4?

most only have an aux pump on system 4....but ours have it on 1 aswell....customer option
 
LongbowPilot
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:43 pm

Quoting ATLAMT (Reply 26):
Hi Mel,

Here in ATL Delta has several supertug crews. Each is a two man crew. One brake rider and one to operate the tug. At night after the ramp agents leave they also have a crew which travels around in a van to assist as wingwalkers when coming into or out of a gate

I remember working with the wing walkers at night after work to get that little bit of over time.

I put in a transfer request to the "Supertug" team about 4 weeks before I joined the Army. Needless to say it would have been an awesome job, just flying helicopters seemed so much better Big grin

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 31):
The APU does need to run though.....well i'm considering for the 747 here. you need hydraulic pressure to tow! therefore, you either need electrical powered pumps running or air powered pumps running. either of which, require the APU to be running

Aircraft don't bleed hydraulics as readily on the ground as they do in flight. In short if you simply power up the electric hydraulics on the aircraft and disconnect the aircraft the pressure will remain in the system for some time. I was riding brakes on a 88 one time with no APU. So we were told by ATL MTC to turn on the electric hydraulic pumps, once we had a green indication on the pressure guage (3000 psi or something like that) we shut the pumps down, and the system has a one way valve that won't allow it to depressurize. So you have enough pressure for about 3 brake applications. More than enough. Once you reach your parking spot you simply set the brakes and then the pressure will relieve itself over time.

So that is how you tow without the APU.
 
Matt72033
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:17 pm

Quoting LongbowPilot (Reply 45):
So you have enough pressure for about 3 brake applications. More than enough. Once you reach your parking spot you simply set the brakes and then the pressure will relieve itself over time.

but on the 747 that pressure would be used by the body gear steering, wouldnt it?
 
futureuapilot
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RE: Super Tug

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:48 pm

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 39):
maybe pay more attention to reply #45, FutureUApilot, you state that you have one at work. Do you use it, I don't know.

Ah, I when I saw my first Super Tug was in Houston about a year ago at Holloween time. Sense then I have been hired at MaxAir where we get to see that little tug every day. Thanks for pointing this out though!

-Sam
The Pilot is the highest form of life on Earth!
 
LongbowPilot
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RE: Super Tug

Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:19 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 46):
but on the 747 that pressure would be used by the body gear steering, wouldnt it?

dunno know if the body steering is used in a towing situation. I worked with a lot of aircrat, but never the 47.

Another perk i forgot to mention is the fuel savings. It saves companies a fortune, because MTC guys don't have to be trained to taxi the aircraft, you don't need extra personnel to move aircraft, you don't need to run engines etc. etc.

So big time savings.
 
Matt72033
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RE: Super Tug

Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:52 pm

The body gear steering arming circuit is deactivated whenever the gear is in tilted position, or when wheel speed is greater than 20 knots.

but i guess you'd still have pressure in the brake accumulator.

pretty much all the tows ive seen with a towbarless tug ive been able to see someone in the flight deck aswell!

Quoting Charliecossie (Reply 37):
In each case, there was no external fire

possibly because there was someone in he flight deck to follow the appropriate procedures?

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