airxliban
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737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:24 pm

can someone quickly tell me if the 737NG is fly-by-wire? I am trying to finish a report!
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
greaser
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:31 pm

No, it is not FBW

Filler Filler
Now you're really flying
 
RightWayUp
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:18 pm

Only one item - the thrust control system.
Unfortunately the NG from the start is a very outdated design. Apart from the uptodate avionics and the much improved wing it is still the same old design.
 
FredT
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:39 pm

But if you refer to the FADEC as "engine FBW" you are likely to get a laugh or two, even if people will get what you are referring to.  Big grin
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
747NUT
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:44 pm

What about the aileron and rudder trim ?  Wink/being sarcastic
If it's not broken, don't fix it !
 
cdfmxtech
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:12 am

Yes, Aileron & Rudder Trim Actuators are operated electrically and yes they move primary control surfaces. But they are not referred to as FBW. Stabilzier Trim for that matter would also be considered as FBW.
FBW generally consists of a computer that would factor in alot of external stuff (air data, parameteres, etc) and control the flight controls based on control column, rudder pedal position.

The B757/767 Spoiler system is the closest that could be comparable to FBW on pre-B777 Beoing aircraft.
 
747NUT
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:09 pm

Don't worry Cdfmxtech, I was only making a joke with the trim remark.
I realize that a FBW involves electrical signals as the primary method of moving a primary control surface.

Regards
Mike
If it's not broken, don't fix it !
 
wing
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:53 pm

At no point of any B737 NG documents the word FBW is mentioned.
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N766UA
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:27 am

Unfortunately the NG from the start is a very outdated design

Just because there's no FBW doesn't mean it's outdated. They needed to make the airplane compatable with the classics, keep in mind. The 73Gs are among the most updated aircraft out there.
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LMP737
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:45 am

Rightwayup:

Aside from a completely new avionics system and wing you also have a new vertical, horizontal, APU, packs, landing gear and updated engines. As as you can see the 737NG was far from an outdated design at the start.
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pilotpip
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:43 pm

By the logic that the NG is out of date you could also make the same claim about the A320s as they are over 20 years old in design now as well. NOT trying to start and A vs B thing here but making a point.

It is a little odd moving a throttle on an engine with FADEC however, no real feel to it other than the detents at the top for the various power settings.

DMI
 
RightWayUp
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:21 pm

Do not even try to compare the minibus with the NG. I have flown both and even the oldest airbuses are light years ahead of the NG. The problem with making the NGs compatible with the old 73s is that in 10 years when just the NGs are left they are going to be dinosaurs. I would not mind so much but the -3,4,500s are much better designed aircraft, and far superior in build quality. I feel the NGs were built in a manner to compete with the bus, and as such are quite flimsy aircraft. I am now back on the bus, and although miss the fun of flying the -300 I do not miss the -700!
 
LMP737
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:49 am

I have flown both and even the oldest airbuses are light years ahead of the NG.

That comment really does not make any sense. An A320 coming off the production line in 1994 is almost the same exact aircraft as one that came off the line last week. Sure there will be some changes here and there but still the same aircraft.


The problem with making the NGs compatible with the old 73s is that in 10 years when just the NGs are left they are going to be dinosaurs.

From a pilots perspective the 737NG is pretty much the same as a classic. However from a maintenance and engineering perspective it is not. As I pointed out before from an avionics standpoint it's completely different. Even things that look the same to a pilot are not. For example I cannot take an MCP form a classic and put it into an NG, totally incompatible. Just as I cannot swap APU's or engines between the types. I could go on but I think you get the idea.


I would not mind so much but the -3,4,500s are much better designed aircraft, and far superior in build quality.

What exactly do you base this on. I've worked on a number of commercial aircraft and I have found the "build quality" to be excellent on the 737NG.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:07 am

I would not mind so much but the -3,4,500s are much better designed aircraft, and far superior in build quality.
The NG is a much Mx Friendlier Aircraft than its classic Ancestors.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
RightWayUp
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:38 am

Maybe from an engineering point of view, but to operate it is a completely different thing. And yes the old A320s are quite different to the ones just off the production line. Revamped A/Cond system, upgraded avionics, FMGC updated, hydraulic and brake system redesigned to name but a few mods. Most of my colleagues would agree with me, having moved from the 737 to the bus. I used to rate Boeing very highly, the 747-400 for example is a beautiful and very well made aircraft and is possibly my favourite aircraft to fly, however I feel the NG has let Boeing down. Anyway each to their own, if you guys enjoy maintaining or operating it thats got to be good for you.
 
dan2002
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:15 am

Rightwayup, I did not know one could fly the 737, 737NG, A32X series, and the 744!?
A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
 
AAR90
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:57 am

It is a little odd moving a throttle on an engine with FADEC however, no real feel to it other than the detents at the top for the various power settings.

Huh? I don't think it is a FADEC issue, but rather how the designers designed the artificial feedback (if any). Both the 738 & MD90 throttles have the "feel" of a traditional throttle quadrant. No detents and full authority movement with engine power settings.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:19 am

. I used to rate Boeing very highly, the 747-400 for example is a beautiful and very well made aircraft and is possibly my favourite aircraft to fly, however I feel the NG has let Boeing down.

Ugh... your irational sentiments aside, every single fact in the world disagrees with you  Insane

Do you know what Boeing found in the 1990s? That the cost of an all-new design, including massive retooling, would not justify the miniscule performance gain it would have. An all-new design would also blow the commonality that crucial launch customers like WN demanded. So that's right, Boeing is smarter than you.

The 737NG is the best selling of all 737 models to date, reached major sales and delivery points faster than the A320, has an unbeatable reliability and safety record, and recycling the 737 cross-section allowed Boeing to do this for far less than an all-new design.

Please elaborate how If 2,200+ sales in one decade has let Boeing down....
 
cdfmxtech
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:55 pm

It's funny. The word Avionics is supposed to mean Aviation Electronics.
Well, every ATA on that aircraft with the exception of 25, 29, 30, 33, 35 & 36, and the 50s (except 52) has some sort of electronic interface! All they all got a makeover.

In addition, many of those above mentioned ATAs got huge makeovers. Combine that with the different wings, engines, stabs, etc - and you've got yourself A TOTALLY DIFFERENT AIRPLANE. Approach a B737 Next Gen the way you'd approach a B737 Classic, and most of the time you'll fall flat on yoru face.

Also, while I haven't had the opportunity to work athe A320s, why do most people associate an airplane that does a whoile bunch of tricks with being "More modern". From what I have read, and they many people that I have talked to, Airbus puts alot of things on their airplanes that aren't really that neceaasry (or at least so it seems).

Just my opinion.
 
greaser
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:34 pm

Actually Dfw, i would like to the think the 737NG is only 8 years old, since rollout was 12/08/96. But i guess it's when the clearance to build that's more impt.

Nevertheless, The HUD combined with the sexiest winglets on the planet, the 737NG way way kick's A320's butt, sorry RightWayUp!
Now you're really flying
 
LMP737
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:40 am

Maybe from an engineering point of view, but to operate it is a completely different thing.

So you admit that the 737NG is a completely different aircraft than the classic. That's what I have been saying all along! As for operating it being a completely different thing I believe that's what Boeing was trying to accomplish. Updating an aircraft but having minimal differences when it came to crew training.

Revamped A/Cond system, upgraded avionics, FMGC updated, hydraulic and brake system redesigned to name but a few mods.

So different that the A320's coming of the line are now called A320NG? Are they so different that airlines have to send their pilots and technicians back to school for a couple weeks of training?

I used to rate Boeing very highly, the 747-400 for example is a beautiful and very well made aircraft and is possibly my favorite aircraft to fly, however I feel the NG has let Boeing down.

HUH? I think Boeings order book says otherwise and the dispatch reliability rate of the 737NG. The 737-800 my airline flies has the highest dispatch reliability rate of all the aircraft in our fleet. Some might say that this is due to the fact that they are still relatively new. This may be true to some extent but just because an aircraft is new does not mean it's going to have a good dispatch reliability rate. When Delta started operating the MD-90 they found the reliability rate to be poor. So poor that they decided not to excercise the options on them.

Out of curiosity what airline do you fly for rightwayup?



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RightWayUp
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:33 am

DFW Revolution
"every single fact in the world disagrees with you"
well thats a good argument for a start! Nice to see we are having a grown-up discussion!

LMP737 - I meant by that comment, that I would guess that maintenance on the 737NG is much easier than the EGs but from an operational point of view it is a very marginal improvement. FYI I fly for a UK company that is tinged orange.

Cdfmxtech - Again I would not like to argue against your viewpoints on maintenance but from an operational point of view the "overall" improvement to me as a pilot is negligible. A lot of people knock the EGs because of lack of reliability but they are getting on now. I am not so sure the NGs will stand up as well.

Greaser - I have to agree, those do look cool. I had heard a rumour that with those winglets VNAV could not deal with the different performance. Does anyone know if this is true?

Dan2002 - Not at the sametime, but in the last 2 1/2 years have flown all of them, I can tell you I have had my fill of courses.

Until a recent modification we could still only fly to Cat 3a limits (USA Cat 2). the NG does not fly anywhere near as nicely as an EG. If I had a maximum crosswind, I would choose to do it in an EG anyday. With that fantastic performance wing unfortunately you will have to pay for it in someway. I still cannot believe that in a modern airline jet that whilst flying an ILS I cannot preselect VORs for the Go-Around procedure.

And for those that need reminding ( not naming names DFW) I will repeat:

Anyway each to their own, if you guys enjoy maintaining or operating it thats got to be good for you.
 
Rick767
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:43 am

Nice to have another orange-flyer on here - you a LTN boy then Rightwayup?

Might ask you for some tips when the minibus course finally comes to us down South-West. Have been jumpseat on several Airbus flights (320 and 330 series) and it looked like a nice bird to me...
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:18 pm

Actually Dfw, i would like to the think the 737NG is only 8 years old, since rollout was 12/08/96. But i guess it's when the clearance to build that's more impt.

The 737NG reached primary design freeze in March of 1993, meaning 90% of the design was established. The other 10%, which most includes subcontracted systems, was defined during and after the construction began on the first prototype. So for practical purposes... the 737NG design is about ~10 years old, give or take.

well thats a good argument for a start! Nice to see we are having a grown-up discussion!

Well if you can somehow put together a fact, or a pattern, or a trend that has damaged the 737NG because it isn't an all-new design... I'd be willing to reconsider. But there is nothing to that effect... so I'll just continue being awesome....

If you insist that the 737NG is inferior or "let Boeing down" be prepared for a kick in the balls.... your thoughts fall in the There Were No Stupid Questions Until You Asked Category because it has been repeated more often than NW replacing the DC-9 and people arguing that the A343 climbs slowly.

Gigneil groans when people say Airbus gives away planes, I groan when people think Boeing are cheap-asses for not going all-new on the 737NG. Get a life (note that this isn't an invitation to tell me you "have one"  Insane ), and accept that the 737NG is a great aircraft and proof that with the right investment, any aircraft can be sucessful through multiple generations....
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:55 pm

Its true that the lap joint methods of the NG [30+ yr old design] could have been improved as the A320.Apart from that I dont think the NG is inferior in anyway.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
RightWayUp
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:15 pm

Rick767,
Have found on our route structure that the airbus is a vast improvement. Obvious improvements are the much larger flight deck, you don't feel as cooped up as you did on the 737. Operationally it is is a much easier aircraft and you will feel far less tired at the end of the day.

DFW,
I am sorry I have picked on a subject that is so dear to you, everyone else on this forum has discussed and argued their points against mine in a dignified manner, whilst you have reacted as if I have run over your cat. I have expressed an "OPIONION" without having to add personal comments towards anybody. That is called reasoned debate, 99% of people on this thread have managed it, can you? and by the way in aviation
THERE ARE NO STUPID QUESTIONS!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:23 pm

Rightwayup,

I have to go against you on the age bit. Personally, I can't stand it when people say the 737NG is an outdated design. For one thing, the fuselage is the only thing left from the original design. And that is just a shell. The same type of design from the Comet all the way through to the A380. Secondly, if you are going to bash the NG's for being outdated, then you need to bash the A330/A340 series as well. The A333 and A345/6 are one of the most modern airliners in the sky. Yet they're basic design dates back to the 60's.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
gigneil
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:54 am

Gigneil groans when people say Airbus gives away planes, I groan when people think Boeing are cheap-asses for not going all-new on the 737NG.

In every way that matters, the Next Generation 737 is an all new airplane.

N
 
LMP737
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:55 am

LMP737 - I meant by that comment, that I would guess that maintenance on the 737NG is much easier than the EGs but from an operational point of view it is a very marginal improvement. FYI I fly for a UK company that is tinged orange.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "marginal improvement". Are you referring to the performance of the aircraft? If so I think the numbers say otherwise. Or are you referring from a pilots interaction with the systems on the aircraft.

The only airline I can think of that flies both the 737 classic, 737NG and the A320 that's tinged orange is Easy Jet. However earlier you mentioned that the 747-400 is one of your favorite aircraft to fly. Since Easy Jet does not fly 747's it must be somebody else.


Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
RightWayUp
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:26 am

LMP 737,
The marginal improvement is related to pilot interaction. I understand the reason for making it similar to the classics, but unless they can retrofit the NGs in the future the flight deck will have an extremely vintage look. As I mentioned before I cannot believe a modern aircraft is incapable of preselecting go-around navaids, if an ILS approach is being flown. Considering the amount of CFIT accidents, this would seem to be a very poor lapse in design.
Regarding aircraft types, you are correct in the Easyjet guess. The -400 I flew in a previous company.
 
asteriskceo
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:14 am

Both aircraft are beautiful. All aircraft are for that matter. A 100 years ago we only dreamed of the sky. We achieved it. Beautiful thing flight is. Whether I'm in an Airbus or Boeing, I'm still in the same sky our ancestors dreamed of.

Whether it be the Airbus A320, a revolutionary step in aviation.
Or the B737, one of the best selling aircraft of all time.

They both get us where we want to go.
 
gigneil
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:53 am

I understand the reason for making it similar to the classics, but unless they can retrofit the NGs in the future the flight deck will have an extremely vintage look.

What? The cockpit of a 737NG is identical in most ways to a 777, and features all the same improvements than an Airbus cockpit features.

The only "classic" thing it has is a yoke.

N
 
RightWayUp
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:27 am

Sorry Gigneil I do not agree. The -700 overhead panel looks ancient! There are too many switches that are easily confused with neighbouring important switches. One obvious one is the closeness of the taxi light and APU. Or how about the engine anti-ice and the hydraulic pump switches.
"and features all the same improvements than an airbus cockpit features"
I do not think so! and I very much doubt that the NG is similar to the 777. How about EICAS for a start. If you like looking at pretty screens then maybe yes the NG looks good.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:57 pm

Yes the P1,P2,P3 panel resembles the B777 in 'look'.But the rest still have a lot of the Classic look.
Whats good about the B737NG is the BITE installed on mostr systems.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
LMP737
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:06 am

The marginal improvement is related to pilot interaction. I understand the reason for making it similar to the classics, but unless they can retrofit the nags in the future the flight deck will have an extremely vintage look. As I mentioned before I cannot believe a modern aircraft is incapable of preselecting go-around navaids, if an ILS approach is being flown. Considering the amount of CFIT accidents, this would seem to be a very poor lapse in design.

I think we all know the chances of 737NG having "retrofitted" cockpits. The airline I work for would have preferred a 777 style cockpit since we never really operated the classic 737. However Boeing had airlines like SWA and DAL in mind when they designed the NG. As for pre-selecting navaids since I'm not a pilot I really can't comment on it with. Maybe someone like AAR90 can shed more light on the subject. However since the 737NG has not had a CFIT yet (hopefully never will).
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
A340600
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:39 am

Most crews prefer the A32X, it is becauase the 737 design hasn't really changed since the 1960's. this is especially the case for cabin crews. Every single BA and EZY cabin crew I have asked prefers the Airbus hands down,

Sam
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
LMP737
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:07 am

A340/600:

Do a little research and you will find that the 737NG has little in common with the classic 737 of the 1960's.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:30 am

In every way that matters, the Next Generation 737 is an all new airplane.

I agree... I was just pointing out my pevee versus your pevee...

I am sorry I have picked on a subject that is so dear to you, everyone else on this forum has discussed and argued their points against mine in a dignified manner, whilst you have reacted as if I have run over your cat

I hate cats and I'm allergic, for all I care, back-up and run over it again....

I have expressed an "OPIONION" without having to add personal comments towards anybody

Here's a fact about your "opinion," it was factually baseless and flamebait. Why should I let some else have the fun of tearing you a new one....

THERE ARE NO STUPID QUESTIONS!

Nope.... there are. And in fact, the moderators would agree with me. Explain the mutliple rules and safe-gaurds against repetitive post in the forums? There are easy to research questions in the world and there are not. It's acceptable to ask a basic question now and then, but the sheer repetitiveness of the 737NG cryers (like yourself) is mind numbing....

That is called reasoned debate, 99% of people on this thread have managed it, can you?

Boo hoo hoo...  Crying sounds like the crying of someone who is wrong  Laugh out loud
 
airxliban
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:58 am

interesting, i did not realize what i started

anyway, as the thread-originator i will just say that i dislike flying on both the 737 and 319/320!

i would choose an MD-80 or 717 anyday over a 737 or A319 or A320.

PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
RightWayUp
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:13 am

DFW,
No problem you love the aircraft, I don't. As simple as that!
By the way, so I can understand your so eloquently put arguments what exactly do you do in the industry.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:02 am

No problem you love the aircraft, I don't. As simple as that!

Eh my apologizes... i see that I was the bit of a dutche bag

By the way, so I can understand your so eloquently put arguments what exactly do you do in the industry.

Nothing... I'm a student
 
2H4
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:15 am

The -700 overhead panel looks ancient! There are too many switches that are easily confused with neighbouring important switches


What's confusing about it? When all the overhead switches are pointing forward, you're ready to fly.


2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
RightWayUp
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:40 pm

2H4,
That part I agree with, but take the example where engine anti-ice has been used. When you come to switch it off, the switches are of the same shape and size as the hydraulic pump switches which are very close in proximity. Modern flight deck design should avoid this sort of situation.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:41 pm

Agreed. The B737 has common looking switches that can be mistakenly operated.But looking it the other way,Don't you have to look at what you are switching before moving a Switch.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
RightWayUp
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:39 pm

Hawk,
Yes, but over the years human error has emerged as the biggest cause of accidents, since aircraft are becoming more and more reliable. Thus pilot/aircraft interface is a big priority in design of flight decks. Believe me when you are tired, mistakes can come thick and fast, especially in high workload situations. The original NG Mode Control Panel had different shaped selector buttons, which with experience was instantly recognised if by accident you selected the wrong one. The new MCP has the same shaped buttons - a backward step in design in my opinion.
 
Rick767
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:58 am

I love this crew's method of remembering which is the APU switch!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Hannes Meyer

I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
2H4
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:15 am



The new MCP has the same shaped buttons


I would LOVE to hear the rationale behind that decision.


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
vneplus5
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:50 am

Rick, hmm... I bet that's a JAA-approved laser-cut high-tech ergonomically-designed APU peg  Insane
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 737 NG: Fly By Wire?

Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:05 pm

Thats a creative way of remembering where the APU switch is & not shutting it off by mistake.  Smile
In the Classics the common mistake was the similiar switches used for Engine start switch & Windsheild wiper.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Klaus
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2H4

Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:54 am

2H4: The new MCP has the same shaped buttons
I would LOVE to hear the rationale behind that decision.


Production cost. Want to bet?

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