2H4
Topic Author
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Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:40 pm

I ran across this approach...a DME arc with stepdowns enroute, terminating at the runway:






I've never seen anything like this...is this the only airport with such an approach? If not, what other airports use it? I suppose it could be an examiner's dream or a student's nightmare.....


2H4
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pilotpip
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:53 pm

DME Arc approaches aren't too uncommon. There are quite a few of them in the midwest at airports that don't have a navigational aid nearby. They aren't very difficult to fly. The only downfall to them is that they get a little lengthy if flying the full procedure.
DMI
 
2H4
Topic Author
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:03 pm

.....Yeah, but with stepdowns along the arc?


2H4
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flyf15
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:12 pm

Seems like a DME arc approach wouldn't provide very desirable horizontal guidance accuracy for an approach. But then again, it has very high minimums.
 
meister808
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:47 pm

Yeah, I haven't seen one like that before. Not too hard, just requires some thinking. Of course the Missed is pretty insane. I have never ever seen a DME arc to the Missed Holding Point. Adding to the nerves is the fact that a screwup on this one garners you an escort.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
XXXX10
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:45 am

Can I ask , where is the runway? is it just clockwise of 068 radial
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:08 am

XXXX10,

Look at the right side, the runway is between radials 060 and 068, close to the +/- 181 obstacle...

Weird procedure indeed, not my choice on a wet and cloudy night

Cheers

"ad astra per aspera"
 
raivavae
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:37 am

a real weird procedure indeed!
Not very precise, as on an Arc DME you're doing very well if you're+/- 0.1NM, and you're permitted up to +/-0.5NM, lucky you are if you see the runway!
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:55 am

Ouch, that looks like a fun one when you're solo on a crappy night.....looks like even more fun to *try* to put this approach into the FMS  Laugh out loud

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
meister808
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:49 am

How well do DME Arc procedures work in an FMS? I know in the Garmin GNS 430/530 GPS units, all you have to do is load the procedure and everything is in there - it will even change the course in for the CDI so that you just keep the needle centered all the way around and it will get you there.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:52 am

Whoa! That missed approach is pretty crazy. That is definitely an examiner's dream. Never seen anything like that approach either.

With an FMS or Garmin..that stuff is freaking easy though, haha.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
IanatSTN
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:48 am

Without the aid of a FMC/FMS, how difficult is a DME arc approach to perform? Can anyone give me some tips, as I will try to recreate this approach in my flight simulator.

Cheers,
Ian.
Ian@STN ::
 
flyf15
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:09 am

Ianatstn,

DME arcs may look intimidating at first but after some practice, they are not tough at all....just another instrument procedure. The thing that would make this approach difficult for most instrument pilots is that I'd guess many of them have never seen anything like it before. I personally have never shot an approach like this one either. But, if you're on top of things for arcs and are instrument current/proficient, it would just take a few minutes on the ground looking it over beforehand and a good briefing to be able to easily fly it.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:51 am

I don't know which I'd like less, botching that one up and driving the plane into a hill, or driving it into one of those restricted areas.
DMI
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:59 am

Out of curiosiry, I just loaded it into my MD-88 FMS practice software...on the STAR pages for KBWI, they only had ILS and DME approaches for Rw 15L...I loade the DME one, and it took you right to the IAF, SLOAF, then on down to the runway...didn't look to different, but then again, it didn't have this particular DME Arc approach in there, so looks like you'd have to put it in/fly it manually.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:15 am

Thats one of my favorite approaches!!!!

It honestly isnt too bad to do, you just descend instead of holding your altitude (I kinda like DME archs!). Though ive never flown a DME arch in MS Flight Sim, its probably harder to do than there in a Frasca  Wow!

For those trying to recreate it, just download the chart from the FAA:

http://naco.faa.gov/

Happy Flying!

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
raivavae
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:44 am

arc dme approaches are quite common in France, but only for initial approaches, then it ends to a classical vor radial in the axis of the runway. I have never seen an arc dme up to threshold!!!! Go around procedures seems not too crazy for me!
 
10mid
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:10 am

Haven't seen an approach with an arc that is the entire approach, but many Mexican airports have arcs with stepdowns. Of course, those lead to a straight final approach course.
 
JZucker
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:28 am

Thats my favorite approach...my instrument students can fly that with their eyes closed by the end of their training! HA!

Merry Christmas to you all!
 
fspilot747
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:22 pm

DME Arcs are cake with an RMI. I don't think I know exactly quite how to shoot one with just the VOR. its been a while.
 
2H4
Topic Author
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:48 pm

If any of you can find any particularly odd approaches that would rival this one, go ahead and post them here. It would be interesting to see what everyone can come up with.


2H4



P.S. - FSPilot747...are you by any chance a UM Flyers member?
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fspilot747
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:09 am

2H4, nah I'm doing my Comm. out of Aviation-Center, next door to UMFlyers. Are you in Ann Arbor?



FSP
 
efohdee
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:01 am

The arc is the final approach course! Most DME arcs transition to a final like an ILS. This one is just an arc to the MAP. Also the only final approach that is not straight!
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:24 am

I must say the approach itself is indeed a bit weird, since it does not offer a straight final, but then again, a DME arc is not more complicated to fly than tracking an NDB really, so it shouldn't pose a big problem to any pilot...

Comming to look at it, it even seems a nice approach to fly!  Smile

Does that missed approach look complicated???
Then you better don't come to France, because what you see depicted on the chart (i.e. follow a DME arc to enter a holding over a waypoint) is a rather common missed approach procedure at French airports (even mayor ones)!


[Edited 2004-12-26 21:29:00]
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:29 am

Another a.net member sent me this, but have a stab at this beast....


Have fun at it!  Big thumbs up

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
2H4
Topic Author
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:44 pm

My brain hurts.  Sad


2H4
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:51 pm

Almost looks like those Japenese cartoons that give you siezures  Big grin

I had *some* of it figgured out, it took a good brief from another a.net member to help me through the rest. Definately something you don't want to brief while flying with one hand and using your mini-maglight to look at it with  Big grin

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:32 pm

Greetings from that other a.net member.... Flyf15 sent it to me... took me a while to figure it out...its kinda pointless all the different turns..id rather just do one of the DME arc or holding entries instead of that maze that is the primary entry... Anyone want to take a stab at the choices?
Chicks dig winglets.
 
2H4
Topic Author
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:42 pm

its kinda pointless all the different turns

Perhaps it was created to spite the local NIMBYs.




2H4
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regional757
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:42 pm

2HK, i was looking hard and i just got the approach. i was looking and i was like "where's the runway?". now i get it. that is a weird approach. the missed approach look's even more difficult though. have you flown it yet or did you just happen to come across it?
 
Woodreau
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:53 pm

I guess I'll take a stab at it and yall can tell me if I got it wrong.

If you do the 15DME arc or do the approach from holding at TASMAN then the approach is not any different than any other DME arc. If you commence the approach from holding over Nelson then that's where all the convoluted stuff comes in. I'm guessing because of terrain the hold over Nelson is oriented 230/050. So it's difficult to turn from the hold and go outbound on the R332. Hence the procedure turn. From there it's a normal teardrop outbound, intercept the R360 inbound.

The approach doesn't put you in a position to do normal maneuvers to land so you have to circle to land west of the runway 02/20. The approach is within 30 degrees of the extended runway centerline, but it leaves you 643-813 feet above the runway elevation with less than 0.7 miles (D1.5 to the VOR) to the runway (basically I'm guessing where a ILS MM would be). The VOR is located just off to the east of the approach end to Rwy 02 and the Runway 02/20 is 4419 feet long.

The missed approach doesn't appear too difficult, intercept the R315 outbound and rejoin the DME arc to TASMAN.

It did take a while to decipher the approach, then I double checked with a Jepp chart of the same approach. It's much clearer on the Jepp version than on the New Zealand version. Although I do like how they depict the hold on the New Zealand version, already drew out the hold entry and even plotted the entry method for you.

Edit: Actually if you liked this approach, you'll love the NDB version to the same airport, the final approach course on a 179 heading brings you to the NDB which is located 4 miles West of the airport. Then from the NDB you have to fly east 4 miles and visually acquire the runway, then circle to land.

[Edited 2004-12-27 15:16:31]
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:50 am

What kind of approach is this?

An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
greenguy01
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Sun Jan 02, 2005 3:21 pm

Is this video taken at FAT??
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:27 am

Yes, it was taken at FAT
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
corey07850
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:43 am

"Hmmmm..."

It just looks like a visual approach where the pilot was able to make a "short approach". Instead of making a long, drawn-out, squared off base to final, the pilot simply heads right for the runway. This is usually done if there is traffic on final that ATC is trying to fit you in front of, or if you ask for it simply to save time. You might hear ATC advise the pilot to "make short approach" or "proceed direct to the numbers" (meaning the runway markings).

I've had a couple approaches like this before, even one like that at night after a checkride... exciting  Big grin... Personally I feel like it's pretty unsafe, but it's a lot of fun!
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Really Strange DME Arc Approach

Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:25 pm

Thanks for your explanation, Corey07850. I'm sorry the moderators disconnected the video feed that I piped right into the thread.

So here is a link for anyone who hasn't seen it. landing
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised

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