klc317
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Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:03 am

I was recently on a UA flight (CMH-MSP) on a 733. After the taxi to the runway, the pilot simply kept rolling onto the runway and throttled up and took off. I don't get to fly that often, but I've never been on a flight where we didn't have to stop for at least a few seconds before turning onto the runway for takeoff. It was exciting though! Is this a common occurrence and what kind of situations allow for this?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:14 am

This is a very common occurence. If they are cleared to go, why dawdle? However all necessary checks have to be complete. Also if you make a fast turn onto the runway you get some wear and tear on the tires.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
N243NW
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:20 am

Hi Klc317-

Yes, rolling takeoffs are not uncommon with airlines. I've been on several flights where the pilots performed a rolling takeoff.

Usually when the pilots are given clearance to take the active and commence their takeoff immediately and their before-takeoff checks are complete, there is no reason to stop before spooling up the engines to take off. Often, the pilots increase the thrust while still turning onto the runway.

-N243NW Big thumbs up

Edit: Whoops, got beaten to it!

[Edited 2004-12-31 21:21:14]
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HaveBlue
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:29 am

Exactly, they may have been given a "cleared to take off, no delay" because of someone relatively close on final.
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ExPanAmer
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 01, 2005 5:49 am

Rolling takeoffs help save wear and tear on engines... translates to a lot of money in an extended time factor.Helps the brakes out a bit as well.As stated before, pilot should not make a high speed turn onto the active though.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:32 am

Some care is required however. There was an accident or an incident many years ago where a plane struck an object in the departure corridor. He'd made a rolling takeoff, but really angled down field as he turned from the taxiway to the runway. Then he was slow about bringing the engines up to takeoff thrust. End result was that they did not achieve takeoff thrust until three thousand or so feet down the runway. It came as much a surprise to the captain as anyone else.

Your takeoff performance calculations were predicated on you getting to takeoff thrust right away. Those trees can come up really fast!

Good rule - don't give away too much runway making one of these.
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2H4
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:17 pm

I've never felt comfortable making rolling takeoffs in aircraft with retractable gear that retract inward. I know there are overcenter locks down there, but sideloads make me nervous nonetheless.


2H4
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bri2k1
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:42 pm

In a past thread, it was mentioned that care must be exercised when executing a "rolling takeoff" because the complexity of the checklists requires a certain amount of time, and this takeoff procedure reduces the time spent on the ground. The crew must be extra diligent about completing the on-the-ground tasks when asked to perform a rolling takeoff by ATC, or deny the takeoff clearance if more time is necessary. I don't know how often that happens though.
Position and hold
 
SlamClick
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:01 pm

Bri2k1 at my airline we always had two or three "below the line" checklist items that we could not accomplish until after we were cleared for takeoff. It was always my practice that the F/O would not put the checklist down until they were done.

2H4 I know what you mean. There was one Volpar Twin Beech that I used to fly that would give me the landing gear warning horn every time I made a sharp turn while taxiing. And this plane has forward-retracting mains! After a while I learned not to get excited about it, but then I don't like teaching myself to ignore warning horns!




[Edited 2005-01-01 07:02:49]
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Delta07
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:46 pm

I was on a DL B738 from SEA to CVG awhile back and we were taxiing out and I noticed we never even slowed down upon approaching rwy 16L. As we had just barely started to turn onto the runway, the pilot spooled up the engines as we made a fast alignment and then wham--take-off power and we were off and speeding down the runway. It was quite an experience I had never felt/seen done.
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rendezvous
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:07 am

I had a similar experience on an Emirates A340-500 out of Sydney a few weeks ago. Taxiing onto the runway at normal speed, then when we were nearly lined up (I was watching the forward camera) the power came on a bit.. then a lot more and we were off.

I think it's fun coming to a stop and waiting for the engines to spool up, the anticipation is exciting!

Just a note, rolling take off's do waste a couple of hundred feet of runway. In most cases this isn't an issue at all, but it might be if you're at mtow and have to do a rto from V1.
 
411A
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:13 am

On one particular type (Lockheed L1011-500) rolling takeoffs are NORMALLY to be performed, provided the runway length is not limiting.
IF max thrust until brake release takeoffs are required on this type, the number two engine is not to be set to takeoff thrust until the takeoff roll has commenced, if the crosswind component exceeds 10 knots.
This is due to engine surging issues.
In this case, the number two throttle is advanced slowly to takeoff EPR, and must be set to the required EPR prior to eighty knots.
Takeoff weight/runway limit/obsticle limit charts all take this into account.

In addition, rolling takeoffs are MANDATORY on this type, if the takeoff weight is less than 290,000 pounds.
This is due to the tendancy of this particular aircraft to 'nose up' at high takeoff power settings, with no forward motion.
Takeoff charts are also amended to allow for this, with the short body TriStar.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:49 pm

A partly related Question.
At times the Parking brake is set,The Thrust lever Advanced & then the Parking brake is released causing the Aircraft to jump foward,Is that good for the Brakes.
Rather than a normal Roll on to T/o by increasing Thrust.
regds
MEL
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longhauler
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:42 pm

Sometimes the engines are run up before the takeoff roll to remove them of ice in heavy ground icing conditions. For example, Airbus recommends you do this for 15 seconds at 70% N1, then start the takeoff roll.

But, we never use the parking brake, we just hold position with the foot brakes. As the wheels are not moving before power is added, I can't imagine it would be hard on the brakes.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:19 pm

But, we never use the parking brake, we just hold position with the foot brakes. As the wheels are not moving before power is added, I can't imagine it would be hard on the brakes.
Practically it would be the same,then why not use the Parking Brake,rather than hold the pedals.
regds
MEL
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B747FE
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:36 pm

HAWK21M:
Foot brakes are used instead of parking brake, because in some airplanes, parking brake on could trigger the Take-Off Configuration Warning Horn.

In some airlines takeoff thrust over the brakes is mandatory during the first flight of the day.
Personally, I like to take a couple more seconds to make sure everything is set and ready.
"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:57 am

In some airlines takeoff thrust over the brakes is mandatory during the first flight of the day.

Any particular reason for this.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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longhauler
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:00 am

Practically it would be the same,then why not use the Parking Brake,rather than hold the pedals.
regds
MEL


The parking brake on the A320 series is a different system that the foot brakes, and far more abrupt, both in engaging, and in disengaging. For the sake of passenger comfort, I use the foot brakes.

Also, before the days of the Takeoff Configuration Warning System, the use of the parking brake before takeoff was not encouraged, for fear of taking off with the parking brake engaged. Yes, it has happened, a Capitol DC-8-63 at ANC comes to mind.
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B747FE
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:22 am

Takeoff thrust over the brakes is mandatory during the first flight of the day, just to perform static engine performance check.
I didn't know about the parking brake/DC-8 accident.
A briefly description is here.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1970/701127-1.htm
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Tiger119
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:40 pm

Here you go:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1970/701127-1.htm

The DC-8 is a three cockpit crew member aircraft, isn't it?

[Edited 2005-01-05 08:51:55]
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Starlionblue
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:58 pm

The DC-8 is a three cockpit crew member aircraft, isn't it?

Yes.
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fspilot747
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:38 pm

I get more rolling take-offs than stop/go's. I even had a rolling takeoff at SNA once, which I thought was a little stupid, but hey we made it off fine. Common SOP at SNA is stop, hold brakes, power up, release brakes and rocket out of there.
 
xjramper
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:23 pm

On my tol-cvg flight on the 4th, it was a rolling takeoff. However, on my cvg-srq flight it was a parking brake, spool up, and go takeoff....like an abbreviated short field takeoff. Both were on Comair CR7s.

XJR
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flybyguy
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:09 pm

I've noticed that AA pilots do a lot of rolling takeoffs. I've witnessed it many times at LGA and have experienced it first hand when I ride with them.
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schooner
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:45 pm

Rendezvous,
from the Boeing 757 Flight Crew Training Manual:

"A rolling takeoff procedure is recommended for setting takeoff thrust. It expedites takeoff and reduces risk of foreign object damage or engine surge/stall due to a tailwind or crosswind. Flight test and analysis prove that the change in takeoff roll distance due to the rolling takeoff procedure is negligible when compared to a standing takeoff"

Cheers.
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dairbus
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:50 pm

Just to add my 0.02, I just completed my company's training course for new hire dispatchers and they did mention that our take-off performance charts are based on rolling takeoffs. Schooner's reference to the 757 FCTM is probably the reason why.
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radarcontact
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:49 am

What do pilots prefer: a rolling take-off, or first a line-up followed by a full stop before throttling up?

[Edited 2005-01-09 19:51:06]
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2H4
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:21 am

I really dislike performing rolling takeoffs. Partially because of my reason in reply #6, but also because I view them as a very mild form of rushing things. There are many visual and aural cues that can be taken in during the 15 or so seconds it takes to line up and stop before throttling up. A wind shift, an animal near the runway, an odd engine indication or sound...the list goes on. All else being equal, I'd prefer to be an absolute sponge just before takeoff, soaking up every droplet of information I possibly can.

Then again, maybe it's just a result of me being a newbie, still working on my ratings...  Smile


2H4
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radarcontact
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:56 am

Ok, I just wondered because I heard pilots prefer rolling take-offs because it safes take-off run, fuel and brakes. I thought this was true for all pilots, apparently not. Thanks.
Live and learn
 
2H4
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RE: Take Off On The Roll

Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:08 am

I thought this was true for all pilots


I think the only opinion shared by all pilots is their opinion of Dick Daley.

 Big grin


2H4
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