soaringadi
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Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:54 pm

Which airliner can stop at the shortest distance from touchdown. I am talking about the modern airliners of today like the 744, T7's, 340's 330 767 etc....

So I think that the 772E.R. has the shortest stopping distance... is it true or is there some other winner ?

 Smile
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EMBQA
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:15 pm

There are far too many variables to give a definitive answer. Weight with Fuel Load, Cargo Load, Passenger Load all playing factors. Braking Conditions, Runway Surface and condition of the brakes also weigh in. How hard they slam on the brakes... You can take a Max loaded 777 and stop really short, but you'll melt the tires and set the wheels on fire.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
SlamClick
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:28 am

For the sake of argument, let's say there is this benchmark distance. It is the ground run on landing where you flew the approach exactly on-speed, touched down on the markers and used very heavy braking and a lot of reverse thrust and you held the braking until the plane came to a stop on the runway centerline. But the reverse thrust was not enough to cause compressor stalling and the braking effort was just enough not to overheat the wheels and blow the fuse plugs. Okay that is the benchmark landing distance.

The most agressive landing you've ever experienced as a passenger probably rolled twice that distance.

If you needed it, a maximum energy stop would use about half that distance.

As EMBQA said, it will generate a lot of heat in the wheel. On a modern airliner I'd consider a fire an unlikely event, but for sure the fuse plugs in the wheels will melt and deflate the tires. If the plane is then left with the parking brake on, it can even weld the brake pucks to the rotors. But you can stop the thing real short!

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gigneil
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:46 am

I assume maximum energy stops are reserved pretty much for emergency situations, like a no flaps landing or perhaps an overweight landing?

N
 
SlamClick
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:43 am

I'd say it is likely that a maximum energy stop has never been performed in airline line operations. They are usually only done by the factory test pilots during certification testing.

In a no-flap landing some heavy braking and generous use of reverse thrust may be called for, but you are still going to roll seven or eight thousand feet. The important things here are selecting the longest, most favorable runway availalble and touching down on-spot and on-speed.

In an overweight landing, the landing roll is not going to be much longer than a normal weight landing. The key here is touching down gently and not putting any unnecessary stain on gear and brakes.
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2H4
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:54 am

I'd say it is likely that a maximum energy stop has never been performed in airline line operations. They are usually only done by the factory test pilots during certification testing.


PBS did a video series called "21st Century Jet" that covered the building of the Boeing 777. In it, they show the brake certification testing. They load the aircraft to MTOW, grind the brake disks down to the minimum thickness, accelerate to V1, and abort the takeoff. To become certified, the aircraft had to stop, taxi clear of the runway and then sit for five minutes (to simulate the time it may take emergency crews to reach the aircraft) without catching fire. The brakes were smoking, and all the fuse plugs in the tires melted, but they did it.

Great video series...I recommend it highly.


2H4
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gigneil
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:23 am

I saw that, actually. Great production.

They have similar works that show 747 brake testing as well. An amazing amount of energy dissipated.

N
 
2H4
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:27 am

I reeeeeeeeeally hope they do a similar production with the 7E7....


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gigneil
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:49 am

I'm quite positive they will. You can find good productions on the MD-11, 777, 747, and even some about the 380 now.

The loss of DWINGS might not help. Lots of good stuff there.

N
 
FinningleyMech
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:23 am

While on the subject of the amount of energy absorbed by maximum braking, you will probably find this pretty interesting, especially the video (click the link).

According to Dunlop aerospace, the amount of energy absorbed by the A380 on a rejected take-off, could power a village for about an hour!

http://www.dunlop-aerospace.com/braking/rto.html
Unofficial A.net Finningley Rep
 
soaringadi
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sun Jan 02, 2005 3:35 pm

***"Weight with Fuel Load, Cargo Load, Passenger Load all playing factors. Braking Conditions, Runway Surface and condition of the brakes also weigh in."***

Yes I completely agree.... but many times it has happened that I have seen a T7 stop before what 767's or even 737's had stopped.... And all of these were normal landings.... Therefore I asked the question

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SlamClick
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:39 pm

In day-to-day operations stopping distance is maybe 20% pilot technique, 60% exit taxiway location and 10% aircraft braking performance issues.

We all touch down in the "touchdown zone" which is designated by the aiming markers that begin 1000' from the runways threshold. We know where the terminal is, in relation to this particular runway and so, from final approach we can see which taxiway we want to use to leave the runway. In addition, we have a level of braking that we are comfortable with and these are the important factors.

That is in day-to-day operations. We venture beyond those things if they ask and we are wiling to accept LAHSO operations, or a shorter crosswind runway. Stopping anywhere near the limits of the aircraft capability is just such a rare occurrence that, as I've said, most people have never even witnessed it.

To have to stop so short, one must have just had some unusual type of emergency, not your garden-variety engine failure or something, or one has to have exercised bad judgement in using the runway that required it.

That said, some airplanes just like a lot more concrete than others. Most of them, however touch down here and exit the runway there, all day long, just about the same.

Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Aviation
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:42 am

I would go for the 737 NG but in the way of large PAX id say 777-200

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Starlionblue
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:00 am

Talking physics, a large aircraft with proportionally larger brakes can theoretically stop in the same distance as a smaller one. However the heat produced by the brakes will also be proportionally larger.

However, braking from a certain speed in a certain distance will feel the same to the sacs of flesh inside regardless of which aircraft you are in. Inertia is inertia.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
KateAA
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:28 am

From talking to pilots who I work with they have said that the Airbus A319 can 'stop on a dime' but the Boeing 777 can stop better then the A340-2/3...

A friend who is a pilot for Monarch Airlines (from the United Kingdom) said the Airbus A330-200 can stop quicker then the Boeing 767-400.

Is it true that the MD11 is the mother of all aircraft when it comes to stopping, due to the cargo (weight) she can carry!?

Kate.
 
2H4
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:48 am

Is it true that the MD11 is the mother of all aircraft when it comes to stopping?








Almost.  Smile


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HAWK21M
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:52 pm

2H4......Without Arrestor cable too.  Smile
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2H4
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:48 pm

Well, if that isn't the mother of all aircraft when it comes to stopping, then this at least must be an aunt:






From http://www.penturbo.com:

The following is a summary of the performance data that applies under ISA conditions at the design gross weight of 28,500 lbs. Takeoff and landing distances are given at sea level, zero wind, and from a dry level surface.


TAKE-OFF AND LANDING: SHORT FIELD TECHNIQUE (STOL)
Aircraft Operating Data – PART 8 Charts
_________________________________________________________

Take-off (flaps 25º, both engines at T.O. power):

Ground Run - 800 ft

Total distance to clear 50-ft. obstacle - 1300 ft


Landing (Flaps 40º)

Ground Run - 425 ft

Total distance from 50-ft. obstacle - 945 ft


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57AZ
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:12 pm

Under ideal landing conditions, a 727-100 can land on a 2,000 foot runway. Shortest ground run that I've heard of was 1800 feet by a Boeing crew during the flight testing of the 727-100.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
SlamClick
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:19 am

The landing ground run is not that impressive for that Caribou. The feet of stopping distance per pound of landed weight is right in the range of most jetliners.

Where the Caribou shines is getting down to the runway. An airliner on a stabilized approach over a 50 foot (non-existent) obstacle needs a thousand feet just to touch a wheel to the ground. Stopping distance comes after that.

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vikkyvik
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:23 am

Not a commercial airliner, but I've heard that C-130s can stop on a dime. At an airshow I was at some years ago, a C-130 did a flight demo, and had a landing run of approx. 1,000 feet (according to the announcer; it was definitely very short). It also proceeded to taxi backwards for a short amount of time. Pretty cool. According to one website I found, a C-130 at 130,000 lbs has a landing distance of 1,400 feet. Who knows how accurate that is, though.

~Vik
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57AZ
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:29 am

C-130s probably have the shortest landing run of any large cargo aircraft. Back in the 1960s, the Navy was looking to improve its fleet heavy lift capabilities and actually tested the C-130 in carrier ops. The Herc operated unassisted landing and departing the deck, but the clearance between the wingtip and the island was too close for comfort.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
MHG
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:48 am

Well, to me the DASH-7 is an airliner, too!!!

And it certainly has the best STOL capability among other a/c of that size or even smaller ones...
Ground run at T/O can be 1000ft and landing roll around 800ft(at MTOW/MLW!). Quite impressive for an a/c of that size!!!! But the DASH-7 is no throughbred in cruise, though... You can´t have it all  Big grin
Yes, the DASH-7 is my favourite among the regionals.
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WindowSeat
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:37 am




Was on a Delta Airlines 767-400 coming into LGA. He braked so hard and reverse thrust were on right until we came to a stop. We came to stop with 3000 ft to go on a 7000 ft runway.

If not the shortest, I think this one was almost there.

cheers


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XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:45 am

Don't forget the C-17...
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eilennaei
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:28 am

Starlionblue wrote:
"Talking physics, a large aircraft with proportionally larger brakes can theoretically stop in the same distance as a smaller one. However the heat produced by the brakes will also be proportionally larger."

Well, sorry, actually, the laws of physics completely ignore the physical size of the brakes. The heat produced will be exactly the same with small or large (or any size) of the disks, if the end result (stopping distance) is equal.

It may be, however, that some of the heat in the smaller capacity brakes will find itself into a destructive use in one way or the other, but the actual energy dissipated will be just the same.

regards,



 
manu
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RE: Shortest Stopping Distance On An Airliner

Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:07 am

The Feb issue of "Airliners" details the unpowered landing of Air Transat's C-GITS in the Azores. (full report at http://gpiaa-portugal-report.com/). In the airliners summary, it shows the effects of heavy braking to the point of the wheels deflating and a fire in the left main gear. This was maximum braking...

From pp 11 of full report: "Because the emergency brake accumulator only provides for a limited amount of brake applications, full braking was applied and retainedat the second touch down, resulting in the main wheels locking up. The tires quickly abraded and deflated at a point between about 300 and 450 feet beyond the second and final touch down. The segments of the main wheels contacting the pavement were worn down to the bearing journals, the left, rear, inboard wheel detached from the axle."

Pictures are available in the full report.

[Edited 2005-01-11 17:08:32]

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