SATL382G
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New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:57 pm

I noticed during the TEB Challenger incident that the Fire & Rescue folks used a stinger to extinguish the interior fuselage fire. See pix below for a shot of the equipment & resulting holes in fuselage.

I'm curious -- how do they determine where to insert the stinger? Obviously they don't want to injure anyone and there are probably areas of the fuselage (hydraulic & fuel lines, etc) better left alone. Additionally I should think there are areas of a fuselage (attic area of 747 for example) that are less than ideal for fire suppression or rescue purposes.

Note that there are stinger holes in the fuselage side and crown areas




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HAWK21M
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RE: New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:10 am

Interesting Method.
Was it used after confirming the Aircraft was Empty.
Why not through the Windows then.
regds
MEL
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air2gxs
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RE: New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:03 am

You wouldb't use a window on an aircraft for the same reason we tried not to use one in a room fire in a house. When you put a large amount of water into a closed area, you need someplace for all that expanding steam to escape. Those broken out windows will do the job.
 
SATL382G
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RE: New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:11 am

I think the ultimate though is to get the interior fire out before the windows break. I suspect they will avoid the windows with the stinger, at least until they know all pax are out. Having seen folks sleeping with their head against the window it's not hard to imagine someone unconcious leaning against one.

In this case, TEB wreck, I'm thinking pax/crew probably got out before the fire trucks arrived.

Would some type of thermal imager be effective thru aluminum to see pax/fire inside a wreck?
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
air2gxs
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RE: New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:43 am

If the windows don't fail on their own, the fire department would break them, prior to or concurrently with suppression operations. The reason for this is to lower the pressure and temperature in the fuselage and increase visibility. This in turn increases survivability in the fuselage.

A thermal imager would be effective through the skin. This is another reason to vent as soon as possible. With the resulting decrease in temperature throughout the fuselage, you could pinpoint the fire and/or any victims.
 
copter808
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RE: New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:36 pm

A thermal imager would be effective through the skin. This is another reason to vent as soon as possible. With the resulting decrease in temperature throughout the fuselage, you could pinpoint the fire and/or any victims.

Uh, NO, thermal imaging would NOT be successful through the skin of the aircraft. Not for locating people anyway, maybe for locating the hottest exterior part of the aircraft though--which would indicate where the fire was hottest inside.

Thermal imaging (TI) cannot see through things, it only measures heat emitted from a surface.

[Edited 2005-02-17 08:40:02]
 
air2gxs
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RE: New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:07 am

Copter, I stand corrected. Its been a while since I've been in th firefighting business and just as long since I last used a thermal imager.

The statement should have read that the venting of the fuselage would allow the more efficient use of the thermal imaging system within the airframe.
 
SlamClick
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RE: New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:46 am

I've seen the demo video of this item and IIRC it does not penetrate very far into the space beyond. As soon as they break through into the interior they stop drilling and start shooting fire extinguishing agent.

If I was unconscious inside a burning airplane I'd be happy to have them put the fire out. I think I'd rather have minor injuries from an auger than be burned. Remember you could not bore through a human body unless it was being held in place. The bit would just push you aside with probably minor injuries.
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SATL382G
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RE: New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:43 am

Slam -- Agreed. It's especially useful for AC DC-9 & BA 737 type incidents.
I'm just curious how it works. It's a shame when the jet gets down intact with everyone alive and then folks suffocate or otherwise can't get out due to fire.

Does it actually "drill" through the skin or "puncture"?

regards

[Edited 2005-02-17 17:44:48]
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
WrenchBender
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RE: New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:03 am

Here's a link to the Snozzle web sight.

http://www.crashrescue.com/snozzle/Snozzle_News.asp

My brother works on this equipment at Syncrude Canada as an EMT/FF. I saw their truck in December. The nozzle is over 3 feet long and penetrates through the telescoping of the Arm.

WrenchBender
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air2gxs
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RE: New Acft Fire Fighting Techniques & Equip.

Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:18 am

The device actually punches through the skin. There is a handheld version that is extremely effective for under hood car fires and trailer fires. Just punch through the skin and open the nozzle.

I don't remember the flow rates, but they weren't very high. I wouldn't expect much more than 300gpm from the apparatus mounted unit. The fire is extinguished by "steaming it out". The introduction of fine water droplets into a high heat environment causes steam. The rapidly expanding steam suffocates the fire, though it causes scald burns on exposed, unprotected people. That is why ventilation is normally used in conjunction with fire attack.

I would be suprised if the used anything but water with this nozzle. Foam application requires a specific mix ration and flow rate. But, I could be mistaken about the foam. If foam is used, then the steam expansion is not so much an issue, but extinguishing time increase.

I wish I could find my Essentials of Fire Fighting book. It had some good numbers about all this stuff.

[Edited 2005-02-17 20:19:53]

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