macc
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A380 Test Problems

Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:20 pm

dont know if thats new to you:

tests with the plane revealed problems with stability on the rear ("rear end test") of the plane and also with the wheels, without specifying any details. but the problems with the undercarriage may be results of the weight reduction (760kg less) of components of the undercarriage.

the shedule for the first test flight could be in danger.

anyone out there who has more informations on this one?

AND PLEASE STAY WITH THE TOPIC. I AM TIRED OF THIS CHILDISH TRANSATLANTIC BASHING!!!!

http://www.orf.at/050219-83977/index.html (german only)

the report is based upon an article in the upcoming issue of spiegel

the article is only acessible with registration

http://service.spiegel.de/digas/servlet/epaper?Q=SP&JG=2005&AG=8&SE=17
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
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lightsaber
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:31 pm

While I know none of the specifics about the A380 testing, I do know that finding issues during aerospace prototype testing is common and is almost always thought to be 10X worse at first glance than after review and analysis. The types who are given responsibility over the airframe safety are invariably nervous over any perceived deficiency (hey, its their job!). I doubt 1st flight will be delayed. Will a modification have to be made before a MTOW attempt? Probably. Its the nature of aerospace engineering; a fact kept out of the light of day as much as possible.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Beaucaire
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:45 pm

The comunity of aircraft-enginers ( B or A or whatever manufacturer..) have similar fears and problems with every new prototype due to take the air for the first time.No serious member of that community will or should have lucky feelings because this problem is happening to Airbus or that misery might cause headaches to a Boeing designer. Yes there is competition but at the bottomline they are all air-enthousiasts and do appreciate the first flight of any newly developed aircraft.
As to the potential problems with the A 380 - so what ???
A & B are both companies with hughe experience and skills to overcome issues.
Media should be fair and wise enough not to over-emphasize those things.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
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lightsaber
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:48 pm

Beaucaire, I think we used different words to say the same thing!  Smile
Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
N79969
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:00 pm

If they have to employ a weight-increasing strengthening of the undercarriage to solve the issue, that could become a problem for Airbus. It could depend of how much of a "fudge factor" Airbus gave itself in being able to add weight without going below the promised performance specifications. I wonder how much wiggle room the engineers have to address the problem.
 
pelican
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:17 pm

While I believe there are certain problems I don't believe in this kind of dramatisation. Why? It's the source. If all news from "Der Spiegel" concerning the A380 had been true, the A380 would have never reached this production phase. They overemphasise every problem the A380 could face.

pelican
 
leelaw
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:52 pm

My head says a manufacturer can't design, develope, and produce a product this complex, even in the age of CAD, without troubleshooting substantial unforeseen problems along the path to ultimate delivery. My gut says this program becomes ever more "MD-11esque" as time passes, and PIP will be the catch phrase most associated with this aircraft from EIS onward.
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Leskova
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:22 am

At the point where I see an Airbus spokesman standing in front of the press saying "We have a problem" - that's when I'll believe that it's a problem.

As for "Der Spiegel" - see Reply 5 by Pelican...

Incidentally, Airbus has already said that the claims are untrue:
http://finanzen.sueddeutsche.de/nws....p_id=1000017805&ntp_id=362,383,385

If I have to chose - on any given subject - whether I'd prefer to believe "Der Spiegel" or "Süddeutsche Zeitung", I do have a tendency to not believe what "Der Spiegel" prints...

Regards,
Frank
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dynkrisolo
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting Leskova (reply 7):
ncidentally, Airbus has already said that the claims are untrue:
http://finanzen.sueddeutsche.de/nws....p_id=1000017805&ntp_id=362,383,385


I don't know German, so I read the web-translated version. It doesn't sound like an unequivocal denial. It just like the overbudget report which was initially denied by Airbus but later confirmed by Airbus.

If an aircraft design development runs smoothly without any challenges, then one must ask if they have the most advance design possible. If Airbus can meet all the challenges at the end, then this is just a bump on the road. For Airbus fans, don't need to get over defensive. For Boeing fans, don't need to be over elated.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:46 am

As I reported a month or so ago, my sources tell me "Obese Albert" is overweight.
Airbus needs to shed about 3 to 5 thousand lbs(american). Having Airbus spokespeople say every thing is fine and on sched is having the Fox watch the Henhouse. Stay tuned. The problem will be fixed but the deadline is the Paris Airshow. Mark my(our)words!
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
CORULEZ05
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:54 am

I seriously doubt Airbus engineers would finalize a project that had THIS many design flaws as it is being speculated. I mean, there might be little things here and there but NOTHING major.....this is a multi-billion dollar project, I can reassure you that they figured all of this out BEFORE the aircraft design was finalized and prototype built. So, I think all these "problems" are just BS intented to fuel rumors that the A380 will be a big failure.
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:00 am

I have got the feeling that many journalists don´t understand how engineering works. They assume everything gets preplanned on the drawing board and then has to work as planned. They don´t understand things with many variables and the twiddling involved to get everything run smoothly. The A380 will have teething problems, like ANY other machine ever conceived, but I assume that the problems will be fixed.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
leelaw
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (reply 9):
As I reported a month or so ago, my sources tell me "Obese Albert" is overweight.
Airbus needs to shed about 3 to 5 thousand lbs(american).


If your "sources" (whomever they may be) are accurate, such news will not escape the radar of the "hatchet men" at SQ; who just love to reread their contacts. The woodshed at Changi always has an ample supply of sharp axes.  Laugh out loud
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eilennaei
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:40 am

"My gut says this program becomes ever more "MD-11esque" as time passes."

So what did eventually become of MD-11 and how long did it take? I've been waiting for someone to sum it all up properly. Do I see my man here?

regards,
Eilennaei
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting Eilennaei (reply 13):
So what did eventually become of MD-11 and how long did it take? I've been waiting for someone to sum it all up properly. Do I see my man here?


 Confused Don't really understand your question.

Basically McDonnel Douglas, Airbus, and Boeing all recognized the need for a next-generation, 300-seat aircraft. MD thought the best strategy would be stretch the DC-10, fit performance-enhancing winglets, and fit new engines, beat Airbus/Boeing to the market, and thus have a successful airplane.

However, the intial performance of the MD-11 was very poor. The aircraft couldn't live up to range/payload estimations, which required unplanned stops and less revenue. Airlines were very unsatisfied, and despite a PIP to correct these problems, a huge blow came when SQ converted their order into A343.

When Boeing aquired MD, they axed the passenger MD-11 and continued selling the MD-11 as a freighter only. Eventually, they killed the entire line. Other than some frayed emotions to those who hold MD products near and dear... no big loss.
 
milan320
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (reply 11):
I have got the feeling that many journalists don´t understand how engineering works. They assume everything gets preplanned on the drawing board and then has to work as planned. They don´t understand things with many variables and the twiddling involved to get everything run smoothly.


Very well said MD11Engineer. For anyone who has worked in engineering - any sort of engineering, then they should be familiar with the fact that all sorts of problems appear, especially near the end of a delivery (perhaps Murphy's Law  Wink/being sarcastic ). Given that the A380 has garnerd so much attention, especially in Europe, I'm not suprised that media turn to sensationalism - but that is to be expected.

/Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
eilennaei
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:22 pm

However, the intial performance of the MD-11 was very poor. The aircraft couldn't live up to range/payload estimations, which required unplanned stops and less revenue. Airlines were very unsatisfied, and despite a PIP to correct these problems, a huge blow came when SQ converted their order into A343.

Yes, I know that bit by heart, almost. But what were those actual shortcomings in real numbers? And were the original specifications restored at some/one point? It seems so, but who has investigated into this? Nobody? People again repeating the same folklore stuff over & over again?

regards,
Eilennaei.
 
DeskPilot
Posts: 704
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:44 pm

I'm a project manager in IT. Although this relates to engineering of IT systems, I'm yet to work on a project yet that went smoothly from start to end. Regardless of the degree of planning (inc risk management), specifications, reviews, navel gazing, etc, there's always those moments when you discover something doesn't fit/work/meet the need and you experience that "oh my god, we left the baby on the bus !" moment.

After investigation, options reviews and further thinking, you work out a solution (with some possible expectation reset) and you're on your way again.

Can't see why engineering in any other field would be different.
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
aloges
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:18 pm

Wow, something went wrong during testing... in related news, a cow in Wisconsin just said "moo". That's what tests are for: discovering flaws in the initial design of an aircraft!

As for the credibility of "Der Spiegel" when it comes to the A380: I also think it's quite low. Usually I love the paper, even have a subscription, but since it's made by "upper class" people from Hamburg and the Airbus facilities in Finkenwerder block upper-class people's views, they have been bashing the A380 just like Boeing did in its worst times.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
yul332LX
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:39 pm

Airbus Says A380 On Track, Denies Test Problems

February 21, 2005

European planemaker Airbus said the development of its A380 superjumbo remained on track and denied problems had been encountered during stress tests on the aircraft ahead of its first flight.

"The preliminary findings indicate we are moving in the right direction," said spokesman David Voskuhl on Monday. "No serious problems have been encountered."

Voskuhl added that Airbus was still aiming for the A380 to have its first flight towards the end of March, although he repeated previous guidance that the date could slip into April.

Germany's Der Spiegel magazine reported this weekend that engineers at Airbus encountered "unexpected and significant difficulties" with the rear end of the plane when tests were carried out on it.

The landing gear was also causing engineers concern, the magazine reported, adding that the A380's first flight could be delayed by weeks.

"We are not aware of the problems that the Spiegel is claiming," Voskuhl said

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1108980578.html
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khenleydia
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:56 am

Just curious, but what exactly do they mean "Rear End" tests?

KhenleyDIA
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DeskPilot
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:53 am

Quoting KhenleyDIA (reply 20):
Just curious, but what exactly do they mean "Rear End" tests?


It's called the Pinto test. Ensures it doesn't burst in flames if it's rear ended  Smile
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
Klaus
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:30 am

DeskPilot: It's called the Pinto test. Ensures it doesn't burst in flames if it's rear ended

...but you bet your premiums will skyrocket if your A380 gets bumped...! Big grin
 
DeskPilot
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:02 am

RE: A380 Test Problems

Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:26 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 22):
...but you bet your premiums will skyrocket if your A380 gets bumped...!


I don't get the joke  Sad
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
Venus6971
Posts: 1415
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:55 pm

This some how related , watching a discovery channel about one of Burt Rutan's project, one of his teams building a round the world acft for a single pilot during the weighing process the team made their goal of being 200 pounds under target. In this phase I guess it is always over but having a small team they are able to control facets of the design. The complexites of the 380 having thousands of engineers having differsnt imputs probably made this inevitable.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
Areopagus
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:20 pm

Quoting KhenleyDIA (reply 20):
Just curious, but what exactly do they mean "Rear End" tests?


Well, the first article cited in the basenote says that the Rear End Test shakes the rear end, and that unexpected and significant difficulties were experienced with the 4-meter long tailcone. And that's all it says about it.

The MD-11 experienced interference between the wing and engine pylons that didn't show up in the subscale wind tunnel or in the numerical simulations. Numerical wind tunnel tests are run with finer grain these days, so that such effects should be found early on.
 
UAcsOKC
Posts: 106
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:32 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 22):
...but you bet your premiums will skyrocket if your A380 gets bumped...!

Quoting Deskpilot (reply 23)
I don't get the joke

Refering to insurance, of course
I love the rumble of a 727 takeoff in the morning!
 
prebennorholm
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:10 am

Let's just wait and see if the "news" should show up in real news media, not just Der Spiegel.

Der Spiegel can only print disasters and all other sorts of bad news. It is printed on some special sort of paper on which good news won't stick.

Since there are not much bad news to put on print these days, then their journalists are in serious trouble. Such troubles are usually treated with "inventing" bad news.

They may be right. It sometimes happens. Let's wait and see. But if it only appears in Der Spiegel, then the chance is slim.

Of course there will still be problems to solve. Otherwise test procedures would be waste of time. But there is nothing telling us that there are problems other than what we in English language normally would call "challenges".
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Klaus
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:21 am

Der Spiegel is pretty astute when it´s about political topics, they just suck at anything regarding aviation...  Nuts
 
DeskPilot
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:02 am

RE: A380 Test Problems

Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:20 am

Quoting UAcsOKC (reply 26):
Quoting Klaus (reply 22):
...but you bet your premiums will skyrocket if your A380 gets bumped...!

Quoting Deskpilot (reply 23)
I don't get the joke

Refering to insurance, of course


Yes, realised afterwards and I work in the general insurance industry too  Smile
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
Klaus
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:03 pm

DeskPilot: Yes, realised afterwards and I work in the general insurance industry too

You were probably just reluctant to even consider having to regulate such an unfortunate mishap... Big grin
 
sonic67
Posts: 284
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:57 pm

Spiegel article translated:
The grammar is not completely correct because of the translation.

Airbus engineers fight allegedly with rough problems with the load tests of its superjumbo jet A380. According to the German news magazine "mirrors" did not exist the tail and the chassis of the airplane the necessary load tests. An airbus speaker said on Saturday, of such problems no speech could be. At the same time it referred however to the fact that the tests were still in running. A failure of the A380 with the tests could threaten the existence of of Europe aircraft industry. The wounds points like the "mirror" with reference to a Insider, is it writes particularly with the "Rear ends to test", which through-shakes the tail of the airplane, to "unexpected and substantial difficulties" with that approximately four meters is enough for tail point of the A380 come. Concern ready the test engineers also the chassis of the giant jet, which is to carry passengers as far as 853 and with landings with masses of up to 386 tons touches down, continues to report the magazine with reference to internal documents. Too much "abgespeckt"? Obviously the problems with the chassis are house-made: Before the completion the A380 had made headlines because of its "predominance". Thus it would have become far more uneconomically than planned. The jet had to become thus easier. Nose and central chassis were abgespeckt altogether around approximately 760 kilograms, it are said. Engineers feared now that straight this Verschlankung of the chassis at the problems arisen now could be debt, write the "mirror". Without test a permission contentwise one did not want to enter with airbus for the time being not further with the reproaches. In the report airbus speaker David Voskuhl with the statement is quoted that the load tests move in "the framework expected by us in the correct direction". The stress tests indispensable for the permission of airplanes load all substantial elements of the A380 with forces, as they would be to be expected flying hours otherwise only in thousands. Allegedly it is now uncertain whether flat in accordance with the maiden flight can take place. The "mirror" could retard delays of several weeks the maiden flight of the A380 planned for at the beginning of of April around several weeks, writes. For airbus - the consortium belongs to European air and space travel company EADS and the British BAE - would be a Blamage with unpredictable consequences. Airbus struggles Boeing with the US competitor for the supremacy on the aviation market. With the A380 airbus wanted to draw back to the crucial impact against Boeing. On the regular execution of the maiden flight nothing less than the reliability of the whole project hangs
 
DeskPilot
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:02 am

RE: A380 Test Problems

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:00 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 30):
You were probably just reluctant to even consider having to regulate such an unfortunate mishap


General Insurers in Aus don't write the regulations concering general insurance. That's done by the Prudential Authority (APRA). If you're talking about pricing on aviation risk, it's out of my league (IT).
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
A350
Posts: 1018
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RE: A380 Test Problems

Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:12 am

I like the expression "unexpected and significant difficulties". How can they discover expected difficulties? If they are already expected, the have probably already solved the issue. And how can an issue be not significant? If something has to be changed, it has to be changed, period. This news doesn't tell us anything else than that the production a/c will incorporate changes compared to the prototype.

A350

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