AirWillie6475
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Etops

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:40 pm

Why do they use etops? If an engines fails the aircraft will have to fly anyways. What are the benefits?
 
jfkaua
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RE: Etops

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:45 pm

I am pretty sure ETOPS makes sure then twin engined aircraft can make it to a diversionary airport when an engine goes out over water. The higher minutes it is ETOP certified the farther from land it can fly.
 
lowrider
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RE: Etops

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:07 pm

Engines Turn Or People Swim
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wilco737
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RE: Etops

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:49 pm

Hello,

I try to explain it with an example of an LH 330-300! They are all now certified with ETOPS 180, that means: if one engine fails during cruise flight, the other HAS to run on MCT (max continues thrust) for 180 minutes without failing, too! THat means that the aircraft HAS to reach an alternate airport within 180 minutes! Over USA, Russia, Europe etc this is not a problem! But if you fly via the pacific or the Atlantic there are routes where an alternate is further away than 180 minutes! And then the A330 is NOT allowed to fly this route! They have to change it to a more northern route to reach an alternate in Island or Greenland and then later New Foundland!

WILCO737
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Etops

Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:34 pm

Thanks for the comments. How do they certify an engine to fly 180 minutes and why would they do this, if an engine fails that doesn't mean that the other engine will fail too, doesn't it?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Etops

Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:30 pm

How do they certify an engine to fly 180 minutes and why would they do this, if an engine fails that doesn't mean that the other engine will fail too, doesn't it?

Certification starts with design, but the main element is maintenance procedures. For example, maintenance needs to be separate for the engines. ETOPS certification is per ship, which is why you sometimes see "ETOPS" painted on the fuse, in order to differentiate the ship from a non-ETOPS ship of the same type and airline.

You are quite right that one engine failing does not statistically have an impact on the probability of another failing. ETOPS procedures make both engines less likely to fail due to increased maintenance AND the separation of maintenance decreases the possibilty of both failing from the same cause.

If both engines on an aircraft should fail, the cause would most likely affect all four engines on a quad anyway. Even on non-ETOPS certified ships, engines are designed to be separate systems to avoid a single point of failure.


And btw ETOPS = Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
SlamClick
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RE: Etops

Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (reply 0):
Why do they use etops? If an engines fails the aircraft will have to fly anyways. What are the benefits?


The answer to that question is - if you want to fly the route (trans Atlantic, for example) you must comply with the procedures. That is "why."


Quoting Jfkaua (reply 1):
I am pretty sure ETOPS makes sure then twin engined aircraft can make it to a diversionary airport when an engine goes out over water. The higher minutes it is ETOP certified the farther from land it can fly.


Essentially correct. Not just "over water" though, it addresses over polar icecaps, large uninhabited areas. There are places in the Sahara, I'm sure where you would not find a suitable airport for a jumbo. So it is not farther from "land" but from a suitable airport. There may have to be special certification for the A-380 because of its size and weight.

Quoting WILCO737 (reply 3):
Hello,

I try to explain it with an example of an LH 330-300! They are all now certified with ETOPS 180, that means: if one engine fails during cruise flight, the other HAS to run on MCT (max continues thrust) for 180 minutes without failing, too! THat means that the aircraft HAS to reach an alternate airport within 180 minutes!


Not exactly the point. First; since MCT means maximum CONTINUOUS thrust any jet engine hanging on any airliner out there will presumably run at MCT as long as the fuel lasts. There is NO time limit on MCT on any airplane or engine.

* * *


For US Certification Advisory Circular 120-42A (as amended) is the guideline. I'm looking for a copy of that right now. It is not all about engines, as has been noted above, but other system redundancies and monitoring capability too. APU inflight starts must be proven regularly and so on. Maintenance and crew training are part of the authority.

When talking ETOPS most people think first of engine failure but that is not necessarily the most serious event you could have to deal with. (Swissair 111 comes to mind - three good engines when they hit the water) There are also pressurization problems, fuel leaks, perhaps even onboard medical emergencies to consider.

Also, in RVSM airspace like the North Atlantic if an engine fails you will not be at MCT on the remaining engine for very long. If you did a normal "driftdown" you would be overtaken by the plane behind you, probably before you started your descent. The rules require a 90 degree turn off the track, to a paralell course between your track and the next one (so about 30 nm off track) Then, and only then are we to start a descent. The descent must be continued until we are below the organized track structure. (FL290 is that right?) then we can proceed toward an alternate.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Etops

Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:07 am

When talking ETOPS most people think first of engine failure but that is not necessarily the most serious event you could have to deal with.

Presumably this is why triplets and quads have LROPS certification, despite the greater number of engines.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
SlamClick
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RE: Etops

Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:28 am

There is a proposal underway that would, among other things, change ETOPS to mean ExTended OPerationS and beyond 180 minutes would be applicable to any number of engines.

Swissair 111 was part of the reason for this. As a three-engine MD-11 it was exempt from ETOPS requirements but still did not have the option to "land ASAP."
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
777wt
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RE: Etops

Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:59 am

As for ETOPS, I do know one mechanic cannot work on both engines on a aircraft.
Some may have extra equipment on board such as an additional boost pump or a extra fire bottle.
 
air2gxs
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RE: Etops

Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting 777WT (reply 9):
As for ETOPS, I do know one mechanic cannot work on both engines on a aircraft.


Not quite right. Our ETOPS book says:
"ETOPS dispatch is not permitted following simultaneous identical maintenance actions on ETOPS Significant Engine Systems or components until the proper operation of the affected system is verified."

It further defines Simultaneous Engine Maintenance as:
"the same task...being performed on both engines during the same maintenance visit."

Now some operators may also limit the individual mechanic's actions to one engine only, but the FAA does not.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Etops

Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:17 pm

Thanks for the replies, I didn't know that ETOPS was a procedure.
 
air2gxs
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RE: Etops

Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:49 pm

AirWillie,

It's not just procedure. An ETOPS "designed" aircraft is different from a non-ETOPS of the the same type. For example, our B767 have an equipment cooling monitor on the P61 panel which is part of the ETOPS program. When I worked at DAL back in the 80's, we did not operate ETOPS B767's. Those aircraft did not have the monitor.

If I remember correctly, the DAL birds did not have an HMG (hydraulic motor generator), but the ETOPS birds do have them.

ETOPS is procedure and systems.
 
AvionicMech
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RE: Etops

Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:10 pm

Quoting Air2gxs (reply 12):
For example, our B767 have an equipment cooling monitor on the P61 panel which is part of the ETOPS program. When I worked at DAL back in the 80's, we did not operate ETOPS B767's. Those aircraft did not have the monitor.


I assume you mean those 9? silly little white balls? They have always made me laugh as its such a basic way of checking the cooling to each rack but it does the job, so I guess there is not really any need for anything else.

Also the 767 has three cargo fire bottles and a 30 min timer which is part of the ETOPS spec. But I am sure there are lots of other things that I don't know about as I have never worked on a non-ETOPS 767.

Avionic Mech
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Etops

Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:58 am

How does ETOPS address smoke on the flight deck? What is required of the flight crew and what safety equipment ( over and above non-ETOPS) must the flight deck have?
If Swissair FL.111 had been so equipped could the aircraft have made it to Halifax?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Etops

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting 777WT (reply 9):
As for ETOPS, I do know one mechanic cannot work on both engines on a aircraft

What about Two mechanics working on Different Engines Simulataneously doing the same job.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
air2gxs
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RE: Etops

Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:06 am

Hawk,

Read post 10. The same task can not be performed on both engines during the same visit. It doesn't matter how many mechanics do the job.

Something that happened a few months ago to illustrate.

We were tasked to change the fuel filter on the left engine of a B767 as part of its work package (along with several other engine items to be checked and serviced). Later that weekend, during the pre-departure check performed by the mechanic, a fuel leak was discovered on the right engine. As luck would have it, the fuel was coming from the fuel filter bowl. We replaced the packing and departed the aircraft, after downgrading the aircraft to non-ETOPS.

The task. removing and installing the filter bowl, was performed on both engines during the same maintenance visit. Even though 2 different mechanics did the work on 2 different days, the aircraft still had to be removed from ETOPS status until the verification procedures were completed.

That is why it is extremely important to keep track of all work going on during a maintenance visit on ETOPS aircraft.
 
troubleshooter
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RE: Etops

Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:40 am

Air2gxs:
Quoting Air2gxs (reply 16):
Read post 10. The same task can not be performed on both engines during the same visit. It doesn't matter how many mechanics do the job.


What about duplicate inspections? I work on regio jets only so I´ve never came across ETOPS regulations. Is it possible to keep the ETOPS status this way?

Quoting Air2gxs (reply 16):
The task. removing and installing the filter bowl, was performed on both engines during the same maintenance visit. Even though 2 different mechanics did the work on 2 different days, the aircraft still had to be removed from ETOPS status until the verification procedures were completed.


What kind of action is required to upgrade the aircraft to ETOPS again?
This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
 
air2gxs
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RE: Etops

Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:01 am

I don't have the book with me, but I believe simultaneous maintenance on the fuel or oil system requires a 1 hour verification flight if the work was performed by ETOPS qualified personnel. If not done by ETOPS mechanics, then the work must be inspected followed by a verification flight. A verification flight is a flight in a non-ETOPS environment. There must be no write-ups pertaining to the affected system for the aircraft to pass the flight.

Simultaneous inspections do not present a problem as long as no lines or borescope ports are opened.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Etops

Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:52 pm

Quoting Air2gxs (reply 18):
If not done by ETOPS mechanics, then the work must be inspected followed by a verification flight


What Qualifies for an ETOPS Mechanic rating.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
air2gxs
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RE: Etops

Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting HAWK21M (reply 19):
What Qualifies for an ETOPS Mechanic rating


At UPS, the mechanic must go through the B767 Familiarization class, complete the ETOPS part of the course (test) and maintain the certification through annual testing.

I don't know about other airlines.
 
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GEG
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RE: Etops

Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:57 am

So can an aircraft come from the manufacurer and be ETOPS compliant or does the individual airline need to do something first before it is ETOPS compliant?
I have no idea what I'm doing...
 
air2gxs
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RE: Etops

Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:43 am

The aircraft is certified ETOPS by the manufacturer. It is up to the operator to receive certification, train its people and maintain the aircraft in ETOPS configuration.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Etops

Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:15 pm

Quoting Air2gxs (reply 20):
At UPS, the mechanic must go through the B767 Familiarization class, complete the ETOPS part of the course (test) and maintain the certification through annual testing.


Whats constitute the Training,What topics.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
air2gxs
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RE: Etops

Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:58 pm

Our familiarization classes are 80 hours and encompass all ATA chapters. The class covers a basic overview of the systems with some in-depth coverage on reliability issues (e.g. equipment cooling, always a problem). The avionics chapters (22, 23 & 34) are touched on, but they are covered in depth in our 80 hour avionics/CAT classes. The engine chapters are also just touched on and are covered in depth in a 40 hour engine class.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Etops

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:54 pm

How different is this training from the normal Refresher/Approved trainings.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
air2gxs
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RE: Etops

Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:53 am

This is an approved training. We don't offer "refresher" trainings too much. The only refresher I remember was a DC8 systems class that hit the reliability ATA's (22, 28, 34 & 36, if I remember correctly).

Hawk, remember here in the US A&Ps are not required to have any specific aircraft rating. The operators they work for may require training before allowing them to perform certain tasks (e.g. fam & engine run & taxi before being allowed to taxi) or the FAA may require additional training for CAT certification of the individual mechanic. But in theory, an A&P out of school can go out and start wrenching on a brand new B777 if the operator allows it.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Etops

Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:49 pm

Out here its a Refresher course every Two years.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
bora4272
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RE: Etops

Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:39 am

Hi,
I think that you should get your hands on a book called" GETTING TO GRIPS WITH ETOPS PUBLISH BY Airbus , it gives a good over view on ETOPS flicks,

ETops does not only concern twin jets but also turbo props we operates our ATR fleet ETOPS(90 mins).

There is a lot more about ETOPS then just engines.
For the FAA look at the FAR 121.161 and advisory circular (AC)120-42A
or ICAO annex 6
J

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