bravo7e7
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Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:04 am

My brother just flew ATL-PBI on a DL 767-300 and gave me a call. he told me that on approach into PBI that they had to do a go-around which consisted of flying over the water. He said that they were flying pretty close above the surface of the water. His question was, what would happen if a 767 were just to dip into the water with just bairly touching the water, maybe only a few inches(not a stall)? In what different scenarios would what happen(based on speed, angle of aircraft, etc)?


Thanks
 
BritPilot777
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:08 am

Hey,

Probably what happened to the Aero Mexico 757 which clipped the water with its wing tip, ended up crashing into the sea, 0 surviors. That wasnt down to a go around or anything like that, was down to the static / pitot system being blocked by duck tape which was used to cover it during cleaning.

Moheet
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Newark777
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:15 am

The amount of force exerted on the airframe would be enormous, with all that water pushing on it at those speeds. Just look what happens here when this plane touches the water. Not the same situation, but it illustrates what contact with water might look like.

http://www.flightlevel350.com/public_viewer.php?cat=19&pic=281

Harry
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bio15
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:49 am

The 757 accident was Aero Peru, not Aero Mexico.

That's mostly true, but with a relatively flat water surface and a smooth contact, probably the aircraft would bounce. At high speed the water can be considered as a rigid surface, just like when you pound hard on water and your hand slams stopping on the surface.

This is considering that the belly makes contact. If the wingtip makes contact, probably the moment generated would yaw the aircraft making it roll towards the dipped wingtip, and that's a whole new story.

Alfredo
 
amtrosie
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Sun Mar 20, 2005 6:57 am

Don't forget the 767 that was hijacked (the airline escapes me), ran out of fuel and ditched off the beach in Africa. The engines clipped the water first and sent it cartwheeling. I don't recall there being to many survivors.
 
bio15
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:10 am

That's precisely the link provided by Harry. It was Ethiopian Airlines
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:24 am

That "WATER LANDING" by the hijacked 767 always puzzels me. Why did the pilot make such a horrible attempt to put the plane down that way? Why couldn't he keep the wings level. I saw a program on that hijacking and I don't remember but I think the hijacker did allow the pilot to fly the plane.
 
wing
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:22 am

Few years ago one of the T-37 military trainers was practicing low level flying and all of a sudden the airplane descended lower than it was supposed to be and touched the water surface.The instructor pilot responded quickly and recovered the airplane instantly and the airplane bounced from the water surface and hold on in the air.The airplane landed to the airport with damage on its center of fuselage.
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Jetlagged
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 6):
That "WATER LANDING" by the hijacked 767 always puzzels me. Why did the pilot make such a horrible attempt to put the plane down that way? Why couldn't he keep the wings level. I saw a program on that hijacking and I don't remember but I think the hijacker did allow the pilot to fly the plane

That doesn't really do justice to the courage and skill of the pilots involved. Having managed to regain control of the 767, they found themselves out of fuel with no landing options. They were still fighting off the highjackers, too, I understand.

It would difficult to control the aircraft with no engines running and no mechanical backup to move the controls, unless they had been able to deploy the RAT and start the APU.

TV programmes tend to dwell on the sensational and over-simplify the technical aspects. Not really a reliable source of information. People seem to think ditching is easy. In fact it's a high risk last resort with highly unpredictable dynamics.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 6):
That "WATER LANDING" by the hijacked 767 always puzzels me. Why did the pilot make such a horrible attempt to put the plane down that way? Why couldn't he keep the wings level. I saw a program on that hijacking and I don't remember but I think the hijacker did allow the pilot to fly the plane.

IIRC the pilot was trying to ditch the plane at the lowest possible speed, unfortunately a wing stalled and the 767 hit the water banking. Low speed was the cause of the wing drop. If anyone have more info, please correct me.
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EMBQA
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:42 am

Probably what happened to the Aero Mexico 757 which clipped the water with its wing tip, ended up crashing into the sea

What..? That aircraft hit the water in a near vertical assent and at a very high rate of speed...... the wing never just 'clipped' the water. It smashed into the ocean with great violance.
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curlyheadboy
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 10):
What..? That aircraft hit the water in a near vertical assent and at a very high rate of speed...... the wing never just 'clipped' the water. It smashed into the ocean with great violance.

Not exactly, it first hit the water, then bounced back in the air, and finally smashed nose down. If you read the CVR transcript the pilots had the time to say "we're hitting the water" before the second and final impact occurred. Not sure what part of the plane hit the water in the first impact though...
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L-188
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:48 am

A water landing in one of Chalks airplanes is a non-event  Silly

Unless the idiot flying lowers the gear.
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ha763
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:20 pm

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 9):
IIRC the pilot was trying to ditch the plane at the lowest possible speed, unfortunately a wing stalled and the 767 hit the water banking. Low speed was the cause of the wing drop. If anyone have more info, please correct me.

Nope, Jetlagged is correct. The pilots were still struggling with the hijackers and the hijackers were beating the pilots which caused the wing to dip.
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:39 pm

Ha763 and Jetlagged,

I had the time to check myself. You are right, the hijackers assaulted the crew during the ditching attempt, i stand corrected.
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
Gecko
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:35 pm

I know it is only a small aircraft but there was an incident in australia not so long ago where a Kingair hit some water on approach to Coffs Harbour in IMC.

The aircraft is apparently fortunate to have bounced as the investigators believe that if it hadn't it would have crashed into the sea wall or restaurant.

Check out the report here:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=572
 
qwerty
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 6):
That "WATER LANDING" by the hijacked 767 always puzzels me. Why did the pilot make such a horrible attempt to put the plane down that way? Why couldn't he keep the wings level. I saw a program on that hijacking and I don't remember but I think the hijacker did allow the pilot to fly the plane.

I've always thought that was a very skillful ditch. Out of fuel and got it down and into a place where rescue was possible. I think whomever was at the controls did a heck of a job.
 
PPGMD
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:16 am

*looks around for Feds*

I know this friend, who took his cub to a lake and dragged his tires just barely along the water. You didn't hear anything from me.  Smile

Anyways controlled stuff, like dragging the wheels in the water is a stunt that IMO is a little too common, but I doubt that on any regular basis that an aircraft will survive an unplanned meeting with water, even for a brief moment.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
L-188
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:19 am

Quoting PPGMD (Reply 17):
I know this friend, who took his cub to a lake and dragged his tires just barely along the water. You didn't hear anything from me.

You should hear some of the local stories up here.

Actually I have seen photos of the Army testing O-1's on skis flying from lake surfaces.
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BritPilot777
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RE: Aircraft Touching Water Surface

Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:45 am

As many of you have mentioned, my mistake of saying the 757 was an Aero Mexico, Yes i realised my mistake, but the new editing thing doesnt let me change it 30 mins after you post it. So for those of you who did point it out

IT WAS AERO PERU NOT AERO MEXICO

 white 

Moheet
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