Arniepie
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Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:33 am

Can an aircraft (type F14,Tornado,Flogger,etc...) land with its wings fully retracted and if so does it happen sometimes .
If yes how high would the landing speed be (I guess it would be higher than normal landing speed).

Just some questions to settle an argument I had with one of my friends.
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SlamClick
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:52 am

Nope! They had one jam back in 1982 and they keep going up to refuel the thing because it can't land.

Doing annual flight physicals on the pilot is a little tougher!

Seriously I don't know but someone will jump in soon. I once talked to a guy who'd landed an F-8 Crusader with the wing in the DOWN position and it rolled farther than he actually had pavement to roll on. Might be similar?
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Jetlagged
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:18 am

My guess is it could be landed on a long enough runway. You would have less lift and no flaps. The touchdown speed would be very high and the tyres might not survive. The wing would act something like Concorde's (i.e. a slender delta). Angle of attack would be high, so the pilot wouldn't have much of a view.

Does the F-14 have reverse thrust? Probably not, in which case the landing roll would be extremely long.
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aeroweanie
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:25 am

SlamClick:

Do you mean that the F-8 landed with the wings folded (that would be UP) or the variable incidence feature inactive (that would be DOWN)? I've seen a photo of a F-8 flying with the wings folded...

Jetlagged:

The only fighter/attack aircraft that has thrust reversers is the Panavia Toronado.
 
2H4
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:47 am

I've spoken to an F-14 pilot about this. He said they review the approach and landing procedures for such an event regularly, and occasionally fly approaches simulating just such a malfunction. Apparently, approach speeds are in the neighborhood of 200kts.


2H4


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SlamClick
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:00 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 3):
Do you mean that the F-8 landed with the wings folded (that would be UP) or the variable incidence feature inactive (that would be DOWN)? I've seen a photo of a F-8 flying with the wings folded...

Guess I did not make that clear. He meant the variable incidence - in the down position.

The only effect I can readily see from that is that the body would have a higher angle during low-speed flight. I don't see how it would affect approach speeds, but that is what he told me.
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2H4
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:17 am

Regarding the F-8 landing with the wing configured for high-speed flight, I suspect tailstrikes would be an issue upon touchdown.


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Jetlagged
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 5):
The only effect I can readily see from that is that the body would have a higher angle during low-speed flight. I don't see how it would affect approach speeds, but that is what he told me.

F-8 wing incidence in the down position would give you a lot less aerodynamic braking, so a longer landing roll. In flight drag would also be less, but that would only affect the power setting, unless the flap deflection is limited by the wings beings down.

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 3):
The only fighter/attack aircraft that has thrust reversers is the Panavia Toronado

How about the SAAB Viggen? I recall seeing one taxi backwards at an airshow. The F-117 has a thrust reverser which can by used in flight.
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Newark777
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:54 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
They had one jam back in 1982 and they keep going up to refuel the thing because it can't land.

Do you know what eventually happened to it?

Harry
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aeroweanie
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:33 am

Jetlagged:

You got me on the Viggen - you are quite right. I think it and the Toronado are the only two.

The F-117 does not have a thrust reverser. They have enough problems holding together the exhaust nozzle (which transitions from round to flat) without adding the complexity of a reverser.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:12 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 9):
The F-117 does not have a thrust reverser. They have enough problems holding together the exhaust nozzle (which transitions from round to flat) without adding the complexity of a reverser.

My mistake, I saw a reference to F-117 having a thrust reverser. I just re-checked it and found it actually related to the F117 engine on the C-17 transport! I forgot an F number could refer to a fan engine. I should have read the whole article before diving in. Sorry.  footinmouth 
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AA173HEAVY
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:55 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 11):
Do you know what eventually happened to it?

Harry

They flew it into the back of a Globemaster and brought it down safely.

[Edited 2005-03-21 05:55:52]
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cancidas
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:36 pm

the only problem would be that thier landing speed would be quite higher. i'm not certain, but the a/c can't fly under certain airspeeds with that wing in that position. if they could pull it off the only other problems would be a: is there enough runway, b: would the tires hold during touchdown, and c: would the brakes not melt?

great question though. maybe you'd get a better answer in the milav forum.
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LY744
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:25 am

If it's a military field (talking about U.S. fighter jets now), you could always try to use the arrestor hook, albeit at the risk of having it ripped off the fuse... The IDF/AF F-15 that came down on one wing (and touched down at something like double the usual speed) had its hook ripped off and was only stopped by a net at the end of the runway IIRC.


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sovietjet
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:53 am

This is not possible for the Mig-23/27 aircraft. I know of a couple of incidents where Mig-23 pilots forgot the wing at 72 degrees and crashd upon landing. At 45 degrees intermediate setting there have been succesful landings. I also know of a couple of 72 degree takeoffs which resulted in a takeoff speed of around 500 km/h which is around 280 knots(?). If an aircraft does in fact land at that speed i suspect severe landing gear failure.
 
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 15):
I know of a couple of incidents where Mig-23 pilots forgot the wing at 72 degrees and crashd upon landing.

If the pilot truly "forgot" to put the wing forward then we might assume that he tried to fly it as if the wings were forward and simply stalled. I would expect with the wings back, if you used the procedure for that configuration the outcome should be okay.
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:24 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 15):
If an aircraft does in fact land at that speed i suspect severe landing gear failure.

Why? Touching down smoothly at such a high rate of speed would place less stress on the gear than a hard landing with a side load at normal touchdown speeds. At the speeds you mention, I'd be far more concerned about tire failure than landing gear failure.


2H4


P.S. - Is there such a thing as non-severe landing gear failure?  Wink


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N766UA
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:11 am

The F-14 wing fully retracts somehwere around mach .94 I think. Seems to me, given this, a landing with them folded would be damn tough.

[Edited 2005-03-21 22:12:20]
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sovietjet
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:28 am

Yes I meant tire failure not landing gear. Oops.
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:02 am

SovietJet why would a pilot takeoff with the wings back at 72'? Are you saying it was an oversight on his part? I can't imagine a scenario where a pilot would knowingly takeoff with his wings swept back that far. And 280 knots seems like an awful lot to ask of an aircraft tire designed for much lower speeds. By looking at your profile I'm sure you know what you are talking about when it comes to MiG's but these 2 things are confounding me.

N766UA, maybe the F-14's wings automatically retract around Mach .94, but the pilot can always manually put the wings whereever he wants them. I've seen them fly with wings full swept and even the canards out (back when they still worked) at speeds much closer to 200 knots than .94 mach.
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sovietjet
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:47 am

I have an article from a Bulgarian magazine called "Krile" translated "Wings". They in turn translated a Russian article about this story. I will give you a short rough translation of this Mig-23 incident.

The first person to take off in a Mig-23 with wings at 72 was Evgeniy Chelombitko on April 19th 1976. This happened at Starokonstantinov airbase where the Mig-23 entered service in 1973. On this day he is supposed to fly a practice sortie and intercept another Mig-23M flown by liutenant Yalimov. Moving the wing to 16 degrees is in the pre-flight checklist however during this period there is major contruction of hangars for the new Mig-23s. In order to lower the risk of hitting contruction machinery during taxiing it was temporarily accepted that all Mig-23s would taxi with wings at 72 and put them at 16 right before turning onto the runway (i.e. at the "tech post" where a couple of ground personnel check the aircraft before it takes off. I personally have seen this as routine at my uncle's former Mig-23 base and current Mig-29/21 base. In fact I was at the truck stationed there so I could watch the planes take off and land from closer.) Anyways the weather during that day was bad with a lower cloud altitude of 400m. The first Mig took off and it was Chelombitko's turn. he was ordered to wait for a Yak-28 that was landing. This was becoming cumbersome since the other Mig was getting farther and farther away and the need to take off was becoming greater. The technicians checked the plane meanwhile and gave a thumbs-up without noticing the wing. Chelombitko in turn was concentrated on sighting the landing Yak and forgot to move the wing. Finally the Yak lands and he proceeds onto the runway. He puts the flaps in takeoff configuration(25 degrees) but doesn't check the display where it confirms whether they are down or not and where there is also a red light which glows "Move wing". Full afterburner is applied as soon as the Yak leaves the runway. The Mig is unarmed and he expects a quick takeoff roll around 500-600m long on a 2400m runway. As soon as he starts the takeoff roll he notices that the plane doesn't "loosen up" and the runway is felt harder than usual. At V1 he pulls the nose up 10-12 degrees which is the standard AOA at which the Mig-23 takes off at. The plane doesn't lift off and continues with the nose wheel off the ground. The intruments are becoming really hard to read since the rough ride is making everything jump in front of him everytime the plane hits the crack between concrete slabs. He increases the AOA to 15-16 degrees. He checks the AOA and afterburner and everything is OK. At this point he increases the AOA to 18-20 degrees at around 450km/h. To the right he notices that he passed a building marking that there is only 500m of runway left. Meanwhile at the control tower no one can see the position of the wing since the plane is too far. No command is given from the control tower. Another controller from a point closer sees the wing but doesn't know what to say since an aborted takeoff would result in an overrun at this great of a speed. In the end nothing is said to the pilot. Chelombitko is frantically looking for the cause of this problem and checks the flaps again seeing that the lever is moved to takeoff. At that point he notices on the display that his wing is at 72. Meanwhile the plane slowly, very slowly lifts off. At around 10m he passes the edge of the runway. Technicians at a small command post 1km from the runway see the plane hurling at them at 500km/h with a 20 degree angle of attack and the fire from the afterburner raising a huge cloud of dust and creating two big vortices behind the plane. Chelombitko movesthe wing to 16 and as soon as it starts moving he feels the sudden lift. The control tower then tells him to check the wing to which he replies that it is at 16. Chelombitko takes off at around 550km/h at a maximum allowed landing gear speed of 350km/h and a normal takeoff speed of 280-290km/h. The plane lifted off just in time due to the low fuel load, no weapons and the 20 degree pitch angle which allowed the engine to contribute some vertical thrust. After takeoff the flight was stable due to the huge speed and the rotation of the landing gear which acted as gyroscopes. After the plane lands no damage is found. He continues with the practice sortie and lands normally. Unfortunately(or fortunately) the next day a Yak-28 lands with the gear up. The pilot of the Yak was reviewed first and in all likelihood all of the commander-general's anger was laid upon the Yak pilot and he was grounded however Chelombitko is made a squad commander soon after the incident. In 1978 at Siaulai airbase captain Krivoshlik takes off with the wing at 72(runway 3500m). Landing with the wing at 45 degrees was first done by a rookie Mig-23 pilot(M. Trebugov) in the Far East in 1976. He noted that the plane felt heavy and sluggish but still landed succesfully. In East Germany a pilot on approach at 45 degrees accidentally moved the wing to 72 instead of 16 and crashed 5km short of the runway at a speed of 350km/h.

Again this was a short rough translation and is not as detailed or well written as it is in the magazine.
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:13 pm

Thank you Sovietjet, very interesting stuff there. At least now the reason for the wing being swept makes sense.

Learn something new everyday  Smile
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2H4
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:09 pm

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 20):
maybe the F-14's wings automatically retract around Mach .94, but the pilot can always manually put the wings whereever he wants them.

Indeed. In fact, I've read about F-14 pilots overriding the wing sweep, keeping the wings retracted at slow speeds as a dogfighting tactic. The enemy, seeing the swept wings, is understandably fooled into thinking the F-14 is travelling at a high rate of speed. He compensates, blowing past the F-14, while the F-14 lines up on his six and takes care of business.


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bsergonomics
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:57 pm

Apparently, the Tornado is capable of landing with swept wings, although landing speed will be in the order of 200-210 kts (I believe that's the GR1/GR4 - the ADV may be slightly different).

Because of the safety margin, it is expected that the tyres/brakes would survive the landing, but it is likely that they would have to be changed straight afterwards (once they've cooled down, obviously...). Needless to say, this is dependent on having sufficient runway to stop.
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Jetlagged
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 18):
The F-14 wing fully retracts somehwere around mach .94 I think. Seems to me, given this, a landing with them folded would be damn tough.

Although the maximum wingsweep is designed for high Mach number flight, that does not mean it will give you no lift at takeoff or landing speeds. The problem is that you won't be able to deploy slats or flaps. It will be tough, but the designers should have anticipated this eventuality and a procedure should be in place which could be practiced in the simulator.

A Tornado shouldn't have difficulty stopping because it has reverse thrust. Presumably the Mikoyan and Grumman designers also thought about the problem of wingsweep failure and came up with a better solution than ejection.
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vzlet
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:49 am

Thanks for that article, SovietJet.

Per my observation, Czech MiG-23s routinely taxied with wings fully swept. On the base at Ceske Budejovice, there were signs on the connecting taxiways just prior to the runway reminding pilots to "Extend Wings". I didn't ask about it, but the signs seemed like the kind of thing that may have been prompted by an incident.
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LY744
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:10 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 23):
I've read about F-14 pilots overriding the wing sweep, keeping the wings retracted at slow speeds as a dogfighting tactic. The enemy, seeing the swept wings, is understandably fooled into thinking the F-14 is travelling at a high rate of speed. He compensates, blowing past the F-14, while the F-14 lines up on his six and takes care of business.

Figures. I guess cheating is the only way you can win a dogfight in an F-14.  bigthumbsup  Now where'd I put that flame suit?


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HaveBlue
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Heya

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:22 am

Figures. I guess cheating is the only way you can win a dogfight in an F-14. Now where'd I put that flame suit?


This coming from a guy whose country paints fake canopies on the underside of their F-18 fighters... ah the irony.
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falcon790
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:49 pm

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 27):
This coming from a guy whose country paints fake canopies on the underside of their F-18 fighters... ah the

 biggrin  Good one !

I know this is a little off topic but thought it would be interesting to say. Once I was talking to an Iranian F-5 pilot who flew several missions to Iraq during the war back in the 80s. He told me about a mission he went with the airplane with full MK-82 configuration. I don't know all the tech info neither about that mission nor about the F-5, and anyway it was a long time ago when I heard about it so forgive me on any mistakes-or just correct me. Anyway, when he got there, to the target, he realized that none of the payloads would drop or could be used ! And he even realized that the airplane wouldn't even jettison any of the loads either. So he diverted ASAP and headed back home. He tried to burn as much fuel as he could but couldn't get rid of the loads. So he had to land with all those loads on the airplane. Now, he told me that his Vref with that much fuel in clean config. would have been 150-60kts, but he had to add 15kts to that for each MK-82. Now I dont know if he had 6, 8 or even 10 of those MKs but he told me that he had a hell of a landing, with a lot of smoke ! The tires didn't blow up but sure had to be changed.

-Vala

[Edited 2005-03-23 08:53:56]
 
LY744
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:54 pm

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 27):
This coming from a guy whose country paints fake canopies on the underside of their F-18 fighters... ah the irony.

Well I guess the big thumbs up smiley wasn't enough to alert some people to the presence of humour in my aforementioned reply.

BTW, as for the fake canopies, they do serve a useful function in the event of a 'dogfight'. The RCAF would not have them on the -18's (we just don't have any spare money to go around in the def budget) if they didn't.  Wink <-------SMILEY ALERT


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MD-90
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:05 pm

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 19):
I've seen them fly with wings full swept and even the canards out (back when they still worked) at speeds much closer to 200 knots than .94 mach.

Canards?
 
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RE: Landings With Retracted Wing On F14 Type AC

Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:01 am

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/grumman/f-14_tomcat/f-14a/f-14-004.jpg
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