rootsair
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Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:41 am

Has there ever been any prototype of an airliner that can take off without needing to speed up on a runway such as the Harrier. I remeber boeing releasing some sort of model but I think its rather some private jet and haven't heard from it in a very long while.

Would it be possible to have some airliner take off in such a manner. Imagin, even the smalles small airports could hnandle big planes!

[Edited 2005-05-07 18:44:35]
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Birdwatching
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 1:43 am

Do you know how much fuel that would cost? Look at them Harriers, they're expensive as hell to operate.

(although I don't know exactly how expensive hell is)  Smile
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komododx
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:07 am

I'll try to do a search on google later, but I know there was a Brasilian business a/c (turboprop) that I saw in a Brasilian av magazine about 8yrs ago.

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PM
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:36 am

In the 1970s Hawker Siddeley (aaah...) designed (OK "designed" = made a model of) the HS 141 which was a VTOL airliner designed to carry, I dunno, 100 or so, guessing by the photo I still have (unfortunately, not within 5,000 miles of where I sit).

Needless to say, it got no further than an idea...
 
srbmod
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:36 am

This is the closest thing currently in development:

http://www.bellagusta.com/air_ba_main.cfm

This a/c is aimed more towards the business aviation market than the airline market, but I wouldn't be surprised if a small commercial air taxi service uses them in a few years down the road (The a/c is expected to be certified in 2007).
 
PanAm747
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:39 am

You have to admit, though...Harrier style passenger airplanes would revolutionize the travel world and solve a whole lot of problems...

No more worrying about neighbors on the approach and take-off path.

No more worrying about runway length. In fact, the old runways could be taken out and used for more passenger and cargo facilities.

No worries about potential for growth. Even SAN would be adequate to handle any growth.

No more massive delays due to crowded runways - at ORD, four or five RJ's could leave within minutes of each other.

Or maybe I've just seen one too many Enterprise shuttlecraft landings on Star Trek...  eyepopping 
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komododx
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 2:39 am

Srbmod,

THAT's what it was. IIRC it has been in development for years. I just thought it was Brasilian b/c I saw it in a Brasilian mag.

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Alessandro
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 3:11 am

The BA609 is the closest to becoming reality.
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRErstfl/FR03Erst/PRBA609.htm

[Edited 2005-05-07 20:13:07]
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MikeTheActuary
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:31 am

I thought that most aircraft operating out of SNA had to just about be Harrier-like to deal with noise abatement there.  Smile
 
CORULEZ05
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:48 am

I hope this doesn't become something EVERYONE does. I am sure you all agree with me on the fact that take-offs and landings are the funnest about flights. Especially the take-off. Taking off vertically would take that thrill away. If you want a vertical take-off, ride on a helicopter.
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vzlet
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 5:57 am

Not an airliner, but the Dornier Do.31 was intended to be a VTOL transport.
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jacobin777
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 7:51 am

Just flew on an AA MD-80....those planes come pretty close to a "vertical lift offs"....  biggrin 
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SATL382G
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 8:44 am

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
Has there ever been any prototype of an airliner that can take off without needing to speed up on a runway such as the Harrier.

It's already been done....


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AeroVodochody
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 9:00 am

The only ones I could think of were the chinook and the Osprey.
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aeroweanie
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 9:05 am

The Armstrong Whitworth 681 was designed to be a four-engined VTOL military transport, capable of transonic cruise speeds. A lot of work was done on it in the early 1960s, but it never made it to flight.

 
OzLAME
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 10:26 am

Ansett operated a couple:


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Jetlagged
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 10:45 am

The Fairey Rotodyne was a British autogyro prototype designed for city centre to city centre passenger transport. It could take off vertically because the main rotor could be powered by tip jets. For forward flight it had stub wings with turboprop engines.

It would have been great except (a) the British government at the time was trying to kill off the aviation industry and (b) the noise from the tip jets was ear splittingly painful, ruling out the city centre heliport concept.



http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/fairey_rotodyne-r.html
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JHSfan
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 7:20 pm

Hindenburg didn't work very well, but that was not due to the blimp design. They just used the wrong gas.
But so far no one has been able to make a blimp that can substitute an airliner or helicopter in a pax context.

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Klaus
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sun May 08, 2005 10:06 pm

JHSfan: Hindenburg didn't work very well, but that was not due to the blimp design.

Zeppelins are not blimps; A Zeppelin has a rigid skeleton with internal gas cells, not a soft "balloon" that´s blown up to stabilize it like a blimp.


JHSfan: They just used the wrong gas.

Due to political maneuvering, not out of preference. They weren´t allowed to get helium from US sources, so they substituted hydrogen instead (again for political reasons, of course - the responsible thing to do would have been to just stop flying without a safe medium). The Lakehurst disaster was a relatively direct result of politics.


JHSfan: But so far no one has been able to make a blimp that can substitute an airliner or helicopter in a pax context.

That time is over... But not entirely:
http://www.zeppelinflug.de/pages/E/haupt.htm
 
JHSfan
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Mon May 09, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
Zeppelins are not blimps;

I'm not an expert into what the term blimp means, sorry.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
They weren´t allowed to get helium from US sources

I know that they had no alternatives to hydrogen, if they wanted the Zeppelin to fly. I don't think that the Nazi-government would accept such a propaganda defeat (Hindenburg not flying that is). Unfortunately some people had to pay the price to that decision.  Sad

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Klaus
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Mon May 09, 2005 2:29 am

JHSfan: I'm not an expert into what the term blimp means, sorry.

No problem... it´s a rather specific and somewhat obscure piece of information...  Smile


JHSfan: I don't think that the Nazi-government would accept such a propaganda defeat (Hindenburg not flying that is).

Yes, that was the ultimate problem.

JHSfan: Unfortunately some people had to pay the price to that decision.

As always. Sad
 
OzLAME
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Mon May 09, 2005 1:52 pm

Quoting JHSfan (Reply 19):
I'm not an expert into what the term blimp means, sorry.

At the risk of being accused of being irrelevant 'blimp' is an old British Military acronym for Balloon, Limp.
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Lemurs
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Mon May 09, 2005 3:36 pm

Quoting JHSfan (Reply 19):
I know that they had no alternatives to hydrogen, if they wanted the Zeppelin to fly. I don't think that the Nazi-government would accept such a propaganda defeat (Hindenburg not flying that is). Unfortunately some people had to pay the price to that decision.

Essentially, yes. The shame of it all was that the Hindenburg was designed for Helium from the start, and Dr. Eckner knew and feared that Hydrogen on the ship might lead to exactly the disaster that happened.

Shame too, such a beautiful machine.
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DeskPilot
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Mon May 09, 2005 3:59 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
Zeppelins are not blimps; A Zeppelin has a rigid skeleton with internal gas cells, not a soft "balloon" that´s blown up to stabilize it like a blimp.

Zeppelins were duralumin-internal-framed dirigibles. Derigables are steerable self-propelled airships.
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Tue May 10, 2005 2:53 am

Quoting OzLAME (Reply 21):
At the risk of being accused of being irrelevant 'blimp' is an old British Military acronym for Balloon, Limp.

Unlikely as Limp is hardly a military style word. It's also mixed up with the "real" wrong derivation (USN Airship Type B, Limp). Type B airships existed, but only after the term Blimp first appeared in written English. The term "blimp" is generally thought to be onomatopoeic, the sound the airship makes when you tap the balloon envelope. No-one knows for sure, but it's the most likely.
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B744F
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sat May 14, 2005 6:11 am

Why couldn't the Nazis get helium from the US? They got oil from them (mainly the Rockafellers)
 
Lemurs
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sat May 14, 2005 7:30 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 25):
Why couldn't the Nazis get helium from the US? They got oil from them (mainly the Rockafellers)

The US saw helium as a strategic resource at the time. They didn't want to share the technology to produce it on mass scales, and they didn't want to share it with the Nazis who obviously had an agenda for using it. It's really pretty straightforward, as these things go. What they were using it for in this country other than research and lighter-than-air craft, I couldn't say.
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sonic67
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sat May 14, 2005 8:19 am

The Zeppelin tried making a come back in Europe but the project keeps running out of gas.


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LNSEK
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Sat May 14, 2005 9:55 am

What about this, the russians could really build them , hehe:


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lehpron
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Wed May 18, 2005 2:06 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 5):
No more worrying about neighbors on the approach and take-off path.

Are you kidding? The thrust & the noise from a VSTOL approach would be directed downwards to keep it up as it slowed from wing flight, it would be louder than a fleet of CH-54's doing an exercise in and out of Miramar.  Wow!

Unless they landed vertically from a high altitude and just dropped like a high speed elevator into the airport and spooled up the jets for a soft final touchdown in front of the gate. That would be a trip. Big grin
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Q330
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Wed May 18, 2005 3:24 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 7):
The BA609 is the closest to becoming reality.

It is a reality!

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sanjet
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Thu May 19, 2005 1:31 am

Wouldn't this be a problem for certification since it would enter the airline category? What happens if you have an engine failure?... You're supposed to be able to continue flight which is not very likely for these types.
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LeanOfPeak
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RE: Can Any Airliner Takeoff Vertically Like Harriers?

Thu May 19, 2005 1:47 am

Sanjet, the B609's engines are cross-shafted so that either engine can power both props/rotors. I haven't done an analysis, so I can't say for sure whether it would be able to maintain altitude in hover on a single engine, but, at worst, a controlled landing would be possible in the case of an engine failure.

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