TaromA380
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Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:34 am

Hello everybody,

As you know, there are many jet fighters that uses small parachutes, located in the tail, to slow the aircraft during landing, thus allowing the landing on shorter runways/clear ground.

I recently found that at the beginning of jetliners era, many of them were using that parachute.

But in our days, there isn't any airliner to use such a "tehnology".

And I wonder WHY ?

The parachute won't be heavy, won't occupy much space, and could be used only in emergency situations, when the runway overrun is inevitable.

Should AF358 had a parachute ...

If people are concerned about safer landings, why not re-introducing the tail parachute ?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:39 am

Because they have to be picked up (they get dropped on leaving the runway), cleaned and repacked all the time. The Caravelle had a braking parachute, but it proved to be too expensive in the long run. On the other hand, economics were never of importance for the military.

Jan
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TaromA380
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:44 am

I said "used in emergency situations".

If there are problems during landing, what would you preffer: picking up the parachute on the runway or picking up the debris of the airplane & maybe the remains of the victims at the end of the runway ?

[Edited 2005-09-11 23:55:31]
 
lorm
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Thread starter):

Should AF358 had a parachute ...

If people are concerned about safer landings, why not re-introducing the tail parachute ?



Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 2):
I said "used in emergency situations".

Considering that AF358 didn't declare any emergency situation to ATC prior to landing, no. It should have landed without incident, gone around, or diverted.

-LorM
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MrChips
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:10 am

About the parachute not being heavy - you're wrong about that. For an aircraft the size of an A340, you'd be looking at close to half a ton for the parachute...that means the airline would have to take out a minimum of four paying passengers. Over the lifecycle of an aircraft, that amounts to a huge sum of money. Compunding the problem is the cost to maintain the parachutes - you would need large crews to inspect, repair and re-pack these things, both after use and after regular maintenance. And since you propose that the parachute would function as a safety system, the regulators would mandate routine inspections and maintenance on the parachutes

Also, parachutes tend to create problems on landing. If you're landing in a crosswind, it will tend to act like a windsock. And that's the last thing you want with a large transport aircraft.

Finally, even the military designed parachutes out of their aircraft a long time ago. Really, they were designed into aircraft (up until the 1960s in western aircraft) because aircraft brakes were still quite ineffective.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:20 am

There's a couple of considerations..
1. "used in an emergency.." Usually by the time one realizes they will leave the runway and will not stop a parachute would do no good since , like reverse, it's use is proportional to speed and
2.most of those older military jets , B-47, etc. didn't have reverse thrust.
 
bohica
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:30 am

Civilian airliners have brakes, thrust reversers, flaps, and spoilers to slow them down. Parachutes are not necessary.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting MrChips (Reply 4):
About the parachute not being heavy - you're wrong about that. For an aircraft the size of an A340, you'd be looking at close to half a ton for the parachute...that means the airline would have to take out a minimum of four paying passengers. Over the lifecycle of an aircraft, that amounts to a huge sum of money. Compunding the problem is the cost to maintain the parachutes - you would need large crews to inspect, repair and re-pack these things, both after use and after regular maintenance. And since you propose that the parachute would function as a safety system, the regulators would mandate routine inspections and maintenance on the parachutes

Also the tail structure would have to be considerably strengthened to attach such a parachute and transmit the loads to the structure. This means lots of extra weight.

Jan
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:15 pm

Considering the Size of the Parachute required,The Storage space,The Deployment mechanism,the risk of cross wind/entangling,and the recovery.
Lets stick to the good ol reliable Brakes & T/R.
regds
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Lemmy
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:24 am

I think some Learjets made in the 70s came with drag chutes. I would assume that these are only used in emergencies.

Would there be a situation where the addition of a drag chute would be necessary to get the airplane past some regulatory hurdle?
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sovietjet
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:12 am

Also remember that the use of a parachute creates a "jolt" when deployed and everyone flies forward. That is a rough landing which probably would result in some pissed off passengers.
 
TaromA380
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:15 am

They'd preffer that rather than burning alive in the wreckage at the end of the runway, don't you think ?

"only for emergencies"
 
Okie
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:24 am

The only aircraft that I have seen use a Parachute in the last couple of decades is the F-117.
Let's see Military, Stealth (buried engines no T/R), no high lift devices for slow speed flight, developed before carbon brakes became popular, possibly landing on short airfields, no FAA/JAR requirements, and of course cost is no object.

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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:35 am

Maybe large jetliners should be fitted with these parachutes -

http://www.cirrusdesign.com/aircraft/safety/CAPS/

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sovietjet
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:18 am

The early Tu-134s had brake parachutes, removed on Tu-134As and not commonly used on the original Tu-134 for reasons mentioned above.
 
MrChips
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:48 am

Quoting Vsivaries (Reply 13):
Maybe large jetliners should be fitted with these parachutes

Again, see above argument - size and weight would be immense. Also, consider this - most accidents with transport aircraft occur at takeoff and landing, and these systems are generally not useful below about 1000' AGL. So, a ballistic recovery parachute would be even more useless than a braking parachute.

The reason why Cirrus installed the CAPS in their aircraft is because there are still pilots out there who decide that it is a good idea to continue flight into IFR or icing conditions when they do not have an instrument rating, or the aircraft is not certified into icing conditions. This gives them an out, so to speak. Also, the parachute allowed Cirrus to demonstrate the aircraft through only one rotation during the spin test. Contrary to popular belief, the Cirrus can recover from a spin with normal control inputs; the parachute is once again just a last resort.

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 11):
They'd preffer that rather than burning alive in the wreckage at the end of the runway, don't you think ?

"only for emergencies"

You must understand that aviation is one huge compromise in motion. For example, if we were to give every passenger an ejection seat, safety would increase immensely, but the aircraft would be so heavy that it would be impossible to make any money with it.

You also have to realize that over 85 years of experience with accidents and safety systems in commercial aviation has been utilized to design aircraft today...I guarantee that designers have looked at emergency braking parachutes and found that there were more reasons NOT to install them than there were reasons to install them.

[Edited 2005-09-12 22:54:07]
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longhauler
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 11):
They'd preffer that rather than burning alive in the wreckage at the end of the runway, don't you think ?

"only for emergencies"

Again, by the time you realized you needed it, it would be ineffective. Any "drag" type stopping system, like parachutes, thrust reverse and spoilers become exponentially less effective as the aircraft slows. Conversely, brakes become proportionally more effective as the aircraft slows.

But in the case of AF358 you mention above, if the pilots realized the problems at a time when a parachute would have helped, they also would still have had the option of going around ... all in all, usually a better option.
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Bobster2
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:34 am

I think arrester cables would make more sense. The cables would be stored underground and not affect normal runway operations. In case of emergency, pilots could activate them with an electronic signal. No changes would be required to the aircraft. The cables or some sort of barrier would grab the wheels of the plane and bring it to a relatively gentle stop.

I apologize if this is too far off topic. Let me know if I should start a new topic. All I'm trying to say is that there's no excuse to ever have a plane run off the runway and yet it keeps happening: American Airlines in Little Rock, the Southwest Airlines plane that ended up in a gas station, and the recent Air France crash.
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lorm
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:12 am

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 17):
I think arrester cables would make more sense. The cables would be stored underground and not affect normal runway operations. In case of emergency, pilots could activate them with an electronic signal. No changes would be required to the aircraft. The cables or some sort of barrier would grab the wheels of the plane and bring it to a relatively gentle stop.

That would require just as much as weight if not more than a parachute system. Structual strengthening of any aircraft would be required in the area of the arresting hook.

Quoting Okie (Reply 12):
The only aircraft that I have seen use a Parachute in the last couple of decades is the F-117.
Let's see Military, Stealth (buried engines no T/R), no high lift devices for slow speed flight, developed before carbon brakes became popular, possibly landing on short airfields, no FAA/JAR requirements, and of course cost is no object.

B-52s use brake parachutes. They also have crabbed landing capabilities. There is a landing gear crab dial that has a similar appance to a rudder trim wheel on the center pedestal. All 4 landing bogies can be crabbed in the same direction.

It would be interesting to know what the SOP for the brake chute would be when landing in a crosswind and with wheels crabbed.
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:30 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 12):
The only aircraft that I have seen use a Parachute in the last couple of decades is the F-117.

Some foreign F-16 operators have installed them as well...

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Bobster2
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:53 am

Quoting LorM (Reply 18):
That would require just as much as weight if not more than a parachute system. Structual strengthening of any aircraft would be required in the area of the arresting hook.

This is an emergency situation where the airplane will certainly be damaged, so is it not better to break it on the runway with fire fighting equipment arriving immediately, rather than letting it bust through the airport fence, roll across a busy street full of traffic, and hit a crowded gas station?

An arresting hook is not needed. The cable would simply pop up in front of the main landing gear after the nose wheel passes over a trigger. The emergency signal from the plane would include data about the size, weight and speed of the plane and the arrester would provide the correct amount of resistance for the situation.
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MrChips
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:44 pm

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 20):

An arresting hook is not needed. The cable would simply pop up in front of the main landing gear after the nose wheel passes over a trigger. The emergency signal from the plane would include data about the size, weight and speed of the plane and the arrester would provide the correct amount of resistance for the situation.

A novel idea, with a few major flaws. Once again, I will trot out the A340 as an example.

Assume that an A340, weighing approximately 170,000 kg (about 400,000 lb) is travelling at 40 meters per second (roughly 80 knots) at the "barrier". Now we will assume that the barrier is placed 500 metres from the end of the runway (about 1500 feet). Now to stop the aircraft in this distance, you need to apply roughly 270,000 newtons of force (about 2.1 million pounds force) constantly until rest. Now, according to my rough calculations, and including a safety factor of 2 (which isn't enough for this case, as any engineer would say), you would need a cable roughly 35 centimeters (about 14 inches) in diameter to withstand this force. A cable that large would be cost prohibitive, not to mention very heavy - in the neighbourhood of almost 2000 tons.

A cable that large, in fact, would probably rip the landing gear off the aircraft, resulting in an aircraft that now has only marginal ability to control the rest of its landing roll. Now I'm pretty sure that the aircraft would be able to stop with no problems, but remember this - not all runway overruns result in a write-off...this system would guarantee one.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:46 pm


Any thought of one for an Airliner  Smile

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 17):
think arrester cables would make more sense

Agreed as an Emergency option.
regds
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 10):
Also remember that the use of a parachute creates a "jolt" when deployed and everyone flies forward. That is a rough landing which probably would result in some pissed off passengers.

Yes and no. With good slider design (a slider is a piece of material that slides along the chute ropes) you can minimize the jolt. But that also slows deployment.

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 17):

I apologize if this is too far off topic. Let me know if I should start a new topic. All I'm trying to say is that there's no excuse to ever have a plane run off the runway and yet it keeps happening: American Airlines in Little Rock, the Southwest Airlines plane that ended up in a gas station, and the recent Air France crash.

No excuse? If you want to look at it that way. I look at it like this: Pilots are asked to be perfect every single time. That's just impossible. They are human beings controlling machines designed and built and maintained by other human beings. Accidents will happen. Extremely rarely to be sure, but they will happen. That's life.
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SlamClick
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 17):
American Airlines in Little Rock, the Southwest Airlines plane that ended up in a gas station, and the recent Air France crash.

Pilot error.
Pilot error.
Pilot error.

Before we start spending billions of dollars (no exaggeration at all) on modifying airports and airplanes, let's start modifying airline flight operations departments. I am quite certain that two of those crashes were the very predictable result of a flight department culture. In other words, management error, exacerbated by pilot error.

Land an airplane in a microburst, have your license revoked. Same airline does it twice under one administration - chief pilot or equivalent person has his license revoked and is forbidden for life to work in air transportation.

Some airlines do unsafe things because there are whores out there who will sign off on any procedure the company wants. There are not many of them, but there is at least one at YOUR airline.

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 17):
I think arrester cables would make more sense. The cables would be stored underground and not affect normal runway operations. In case of emergency, pilots could activate them with an electronic signal

You are assuming that a plane with an emergency has electricity. It might not.

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 17):
The cables or some sort of barrier would grab the wheels of the plane and bring it to a relatively gentle stop.

I cannot picture such a device that would not do other damage to the landing gear, possibly break the brake lines, break electric wires to the wheels etc. The landing gear legs are mounted to pivoting trunnions which are mounted to structural members which attach to the spar(s) which form(s) one or more bulkheads for the wet-wing fuel tanks. Some serious engineering is going to be required.


Quoting LorM (Reply 18):
B-52s use brake parachutes.

And they are a fifty year old design.


Guys it is really pretty simple. If we can break pilots of landing in microbursts and weed out the ones who will push a bad approach into a catastrophic landing we don't need to spend the billions of dollars modifying the world's airports and airline fleet. The existing system is good enough. We just need to shore up the one weak part of it - humans with a "watch this" attitude toward flying.

The proposals here are, to my mind, rather like having big nets rigged to catch you if the wings fall off. Just not needed at all.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:18 am

SlamClick seldom loses his good humor on this forum. I don't think he quite did this time either, but it seemed close. Take this as a sign to listen closely.

I agree completely. It's only logical that if the major cause of accidents is pilot error, the pilots are where effort should be concentrated.
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Bobster2
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 24):
Before we start spending billions of dollars (no exaggeration at all) on modifying airports and airplanes,

The cost might not be as high as you think. A primitive arresting system consists of a cable with weights on the end so the airplane drags the weights along the ground. It's actually similar to a parachute except that the drag is created by a different mechanism, it works a lower speeds, and the airplane doesn't have to carry the extra weight in the air. It seems to me all that's needed is a set of weights available and a computer to quickly figure out which ones to use.

Also, a primitive system that only slows the plane by 20 mph might save lives even if it fails to keep the plane on the runway. If nothing else, it means the rescue equipment doesn't have to travel as far to the crash site.

As far as the airplane being damaged by the arrester, the landing gear doesn't fall off during normal braking. The arrester would supplement or take the place of normal braking and presumably could be designed to not overstress the landing gear. I imagine it would work best on a wet runway or in a case of brake failure in order to apply braking forces that are within the limits of the airplane.

I'm sure there are good reasons why arrester cable are not used for commercial aircraft, but I still think it's a fascinating subject for discussion and I would like to understand the issues better.
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SlamClick
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 27):
Easier than cables...

That was an interesting topic. We've all seen the gravel traps on mountain passes for trucks that have lost their brakes. That used to be a more common occurrence than you'd believe. I talked to a guy who took an 18-wheeler into one of them. He said he was prepared to slide the whole length of it, but instead, it broke his nose when he hit it. Now a widebody airplane is a lot heavier than an over-the-road truck (lorry to you Brits) but the whole system is wonderfully low-tech simple. All you have to do is hit it.

I still say the problem is mostly solved when we can figure out what part of CRASH AND BURN pilots are not getting when they still want to land in completely unsuitable conditions.
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Bobster2
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting LeanOfPeak (Reply 27):
Easier than cables...

Actually I don't think it's easy to retrieve a 747 from the arrester bed since the bed is designed to make it very hard for the wheels to turn. The article doesn't mention how much effort was required to get the 747 at JFK back on the runway, nor does it mention the cost of repairs to the arrester bed that got damaged by the incident. My recollection is that it was expensive.
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lorm
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 28):
That was an interesting topic. We've all seen the gravel traps on mountain passes for trucks that have lost their brakes. That used to be a more common occurrence than you'd believe. I talked to a guy who took an 18-wheeler into one of them. He said he was prepared to slide the whole length of it, but instead, it broke his nose when he hit it. Now a widebody airplane is a lot heavier than an over-the-road truck (lorry to you Brits) but the whole system is wonderfully low-tech simple. All you have to do is hit it.

We had a bunch of these gravel emergency run offs on Oahu. I've seen a few of them that were used and it looks like they work very well since the elevation changes by these gravel pits can make a speeding truck who lost its brakes extremely dangerous. Ours consisted of a long 3-4ft high strip of gravel ending in a gravel mound, in which sand filled, yellow highway buckets were lined down the middle. Some of these were mounted on an incline. I've seen a few that were used and the trucks that did use them were stopped before the end gravel mound. The majority are at the entrances and exits leading up to the 3 main tunnel systems coming and going through the Koolau (eastern) mountain range on the east side of Oahu.

A lot of these are being phased out for a metal wire net arresting system, in which a series of metal nets (about 10) arrest the vehicle. At the end of these nets is a hill of dirt. I definitely would not like to have to use these in anything other than a semi truck, since they are about 5 feet tall, and might send a stray wire through your windshield.

I think the best thing that the airports have now to prevent overruns is EMAS. If the FAA or the respective port authority would equip the airports at risk to dangerous over runs that would be great. Does anyone happen know which airports other than JFK have these systems in place? BOS had a loss of life due to an overrun in the past, are they EMAS equipped yet?
-LorM

Edit: Oh okay, BOS has one for 2005, wonder if it is in place yet.

[Edited 2005-09-13 21:15:59]
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Bobster2
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 6:25 am

FAA Advisory Circular "Engineered Materials Arresting Systems (EMAS) for Aircraft Overruns".
http://www.faa.gov/arp/pdf/5220-22.pdf

NTSB Safety Recommendation
http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2003/A03_11_12.pdf
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HaveBlue
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:34 am

LorM,

Copied from LeanOfPeaks link a few posts above:

EMAS Arrestments
To date, there have been three incidents where the technology has worked successfully to keep aircraft from overrunning the runway and in several cases has prevented injury to passengers and damage to the aircraft:

May 1999: A Saab 340 commuter aircraft overran the runway at JFK
May 2003: Gemini Cargo MD-11 was safely decelerated at JFK
January 2005: A Boeing 747 overran the runway at JFK
EMAS Installations
Currently, EMAS is installed at 18 runway ends at 14 airports in the United States. With plans to install four additional EMAS systems at four more airports.

Airport Location ## of Systems Installation Date

JFK International Jamaica, NY 1 1996
Minneapolis St. Paul Minneapolis, MN 1 1999
Little Rock Little Rock, AR 2 2000/2003
Rochester International Rochester, NY 1 2001
Burbank Burbank, CA 1 2002
Baton Rouge Metropolitan Baton Rouge, LA 1 2002
Greater Binghamton Binghamton, NY 2 2002
Greenville Downtown Greensville, SC 1 2003
Barnstable Municipal Hyannis, MA 1 2003
Roanoke Regional Roanoke, VA 1 2004
Fort Lauderdale International Fort Lauderdale, FL 2 2004
Dutchess County Poughkeepsie, NY 1 2004
LaGuardia Flushing, NY 2 2005
Boston Logan Boston, MA 1 2005

Additional Projects Currently Under Contract

Location ## of Systems Expected Installation Date
San Diego, CA 1 Spring 2006
Charleston, WV 1 Summer 2006
Laredo, TX 1 Spring 2006
Cordova, TX 1 Summer 2006


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L-188
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:06 pm

Even drag chutes are falling out of favor with military aircraft for many reasons, weight being one of the big reasons. costs associated with repacking the chutes being another big reason

Also I used to work with a guy who was in the Air Force during Nam in Thailand. Said that more then once he saw F-101's land, pop the drag chute and the only think that came out the back was a block of frozen silk and ice. this was because the chutes where wet/damp when they where packed (not uncommon in humid Thailand) and then froze at altitude during flight.

He didn't have a high opinion of the reliablity of chutes for stopping.

He was also the one that told me this story of arrestor cables. Not a lot of people realize that USAF aircraft to this day are equiped with arrestor hooks. But they are designed for much more gentle and simpler arrestor gear. In their case at this Thai base it was a length of chain strung out in the shape of a "U" at the departure end of the runway. As the plane rolled off the end the hook would engage the chain and as the plane pulled it into a "W" shape the plane would pull progressively more chain increasing the force stopping the plane.

So anyway the base would turn around aircraft that would fly off carriers on Yankee Station, bomb those commies in the north and then land it Thailand to re-arm and refuel at this USAF base. Then on their return trip to the carrier they would hit the VC again. It also allowed for more ammo to be carried on each leg.

Problem was that the Navy pilots could hit a dime on the runway and the way they landed on the carrier put them right on the numbers ever time. If a guy landed short because he didn't have the boss giving him glideslope infor on landing, they would hit right at the threshold and engage the chair gear on the arrival end. Usually this would rip the plane in half since it was attempted to pull that whole length of chain at once.

Also he made the observation that Navy guys have no idea what those pedals on the floor are for after the wheels touch.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:49 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 33):
Also he made the observation that Navy guys have no idea what those pedals on the floor are for after the wheels touch.

LOL! Well no need for them on the carrier. Did the pilots also apply full throttle after touchdown like on the carrier?
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SlamClick
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:43 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
SlamClick seldom loses his good humor on this forum. I don't think he quite did this time either, but it seemed close.

You know, I have to agree with you. I guess I've been hanging out in non-av too much. I intended to be emphatic and came off as angry. My apologies all around.

I always hate to see an entirely satisfactory system dumbed-down to the level of the worst pilot out there. Maybe they should start making the weaker pilots pay for the improvements they necessitate.

The brakes on an MD-80 to take the LIT crash for one example will stop that plane on dry pavement in about two thousand feet. Land in a microburst and all bets are off.

The 737 has brakes that would stop it in about the same distance. Anyone who has ever operated at BUR knows that airport does not shed water very well for some reason. I think it has been grooved since I first landed there but I think I still recall that it doesn't have much friction when wet. Worse than that - BUR has some really hard edges to it. Some airports have puny little trees and frangible approach lights and chainlink fence to worry about. BUR has steel I-beams and concrete buildings all around. You do not take chances with BUR, you play it straight. You for sure do not come over the fence high and hot and hope for the best.

The A-340 I don't know. I have flown the 330 and I assume that it is about the same. It was my impression of the big 'bus that it wanted every inch of runway that was available to it. When faced with a wet runway I went out of my way to ensure that I touched down not one foot past the aiming markers, not one knot fast. I'd drop it on and I'd get on reversers and brakes RIGHT NOW! Once I was slowing and could feel the brakes biting, I might back off a little but I needed to know early that it was okay. I'd rather go around early than push a bad position.

Now I'm not the best pilot out there. I am not extraordinarily talented. But if I can figure this stuff out, then the rest of the industry's pilot population can too. Schedule is important, without a doubt, but crashing is really disruptive to schedule.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 33):
Even drag chutes are falling out of favor with military aircraft for many reasons, weight being one of the big reasons. costs associated with repacking the chutes being another big reason

One of the best comments I've heard on this topic. Two pilots at an air ambulance outfit talking, one of them was an Air Guard F-4 pilot. The other guy was razzing him about needing a parachute on his airplane. The Phantom guy pointed out the window at a baby DC-9 and said: "Try landing that DC-9 with Metroliner brakes!"

His point was a good one. The F-4 had weight capacity up to nearly sixty thousand pounds and little tiny wheels. That points up why military planes had drag chutes. To economize on internal space (to optimize it for the mission) they used the smallest wheels that would support the aircraft. Holy crap! Look at the B-58 wheels some time! If it didn't have a drag chute two or three of them would still be rolling out somewhere.

The last point about parachutes is this: You are betting your life on something that, while seemingly simple, does have a fairly high number of malfunctions. Skydivers wear two. Most of them will tell you, make enough jumps and sooner or later you are going to ride your reserve down. Airplanes, while vastly more complicated don't fail nearly so often. Even pilots don't fail as often as parachutes do.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
mandala499
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RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:20 am

I still say the problem is mostly solved when we can figure out what part of CRASH AND BURN pilots are not getting when they still want to land in completely unsuitable conditions.

The part they don't understand is the part where management tells them to land or else!

Those "whores" Slamclick mentioned don't just exist with pilots... airline management, FlOps, dispatchers, naughty even baggage loaders can give huge horrors for a perfectly sane pilot...

Just to name recent ones:

Lion MD80 overrun in SOC (WRSQ/WARQ)... management pressure of "land or else" added with restrictive work bonds = pilots loosing the plot.

And there was rumours of some "whores" in Lion who keep signing off aircraft with defective brakes! Haven't heard more overruns by Lion lately, but hey was one overrun a month often enough? Maybe Lion wisened up and decided to fire the guy in the end! Then U got them landing at the wrong airport last week because the pilots were daydreaming (again, management issues? or Pilot issues?)...

RI 732 failed t/o in MES (WIMM) last week too... Some notty station staff and their ground mafia decided to load up 2 tons of durian without putting it in the loadsheet... "Hey it's a long runway"... but almost killed my friend a couple of times and certainly killed people on 05-Sep-05.

Now...

Before we go deeper into these systems of arresting gears etc... Runways are supposed to have clearway strips (at least 50m or 75m each side of centerline) and a runway end safety area (RESA)... and an overrun area within the RESA... (OK, forget putting them at Burbank!)

Despite the pilot errors (OK, We know Burbank had a gas station instead of a RESA and has gates instead of the clearway strip, again, if you're not in the slot, you're risking it! Safety isn't about your luck!), the arresting system is good for situation where the problem is known before hand... Where the horrific accidents happen is where there is no emergency prior to landing! U don't want someone to hit that switch popping up the EMAS everytime someone is trying to realistically recover from a late touchdown or aquaplaning...

Schedule is important, without a doubt, but crashing is really disruptive to schedule.

We know mate, but some of those "whores" (yea, not just the pilots) don't get that concept and would prefer "let's see how far we can getaway with" or "Hey I feel Lucky Today" approach to their work.

Look at the B-58 wheels some time! If it didn't have a drag chute two or three of them would still be rolling out somewhere.

"Airforce 58051, after landing, cleared go through the fence, follow the interstate southbound and park at a gate of your choice in the next state, report on blocks, good day"

Mandala499

[Edited 2005-09-14 18:26:37]
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Starlionblue
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Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 35):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
SlamClick seldom loses his good humor on this forum. I don't think he quite did this time either, but it seemed close.

You know, I have to agree with you. I guess I've been hanging out in non-av too much. I intended to be emphatic and came off as angry. My apologies all around.

First of all: "STEP AWAY FROM NON-AV!!!" That place drives me nutty Big grin

Secondly, no need to apologize. We all have our rants. I was just pointing out that the fact that you did meant the subject was important.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:17 pm

This may be off topic, but I didn't want to start a new topic about it.

What is the approximate coeff of drag for circular parachute?
Does it changed for those parasail rectangular ones?
It's for a project.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 38):
I didn't want to start a new topic about it.



Quoting Lehpron (Reply 38):
It's for a project.

In that case I'd suggest you do start a new thread specifically about that. You are going to want some hits on it very early in order to be able to distill what you learn into your own work.

Empirically it seems to me that the foils descend slower, but the designs are pretty sophisticated these days. I'm sure there is more to it than I would understand.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
David L
Posts: 8552
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:26 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
SlamClick seldom loses his good humor on this forum. I don't think he quite did this time either, but it seemed close. Take this as a sign to listen closely.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 35):
Holy crap! Look at the B-58 wheels some time! If it didn't have a drag chute two or three of them would still be rolling out somewhere.

 rotfl 

It was, at worst, a minor blip!
 
meister808
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2000 11:45 am

RE: Why Not Parachutes To Break During Landing?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:05 am

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 36):
The part they don't understand is the part where management tells them to land or else!

Thats a load of crap. Management may be making those kinds of calls, but I think the decision there is pretty clear, as it should be for anyone in a position of reponsibility - safety first, other garbage later. If someone tells me to do something that seriously risks my life, they can sod off - I don't care about my job status at a place with policies like that.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation

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