Zweed
Topic Author
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Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:31 pm

What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:20 am

This friday i flew with KLM 1121 AMS - ARN
Just before we were about to taxi the captain started to talk. First that standardized welcome crap "thank you for flying with us..bla bla bla.

Then the big one came
"I would also like to point out that as of yesterday Boeing has an alert on these aircraft, 737-400. We cannot land with the flaps set at 30, we need to kep them at 15.
This means that we will land with a much higher speed. But you will hardly notice it.

Fair enough, nice of him to inform us about it and yes, I hardly paid any attention. I believe it took a bit longer to break on the runway, but that could just as well be an illusion.

So to the point, what kind of warning and ALERT was this?
 
OPNLguy
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting Zweed (Thread starter):
Then the big one came
"I would also like to point out that as of yesterday Boeing has an alert on these aircraft, 737-400. We cannot land with the flaps set at 30, we need to kep them at 15.
This means that we will land with a much higher speed. But you will hardly notice it.

Fair enough, nice of him to inform us about it and yes, I hardly paid any attention. I believe it took a bit longer to break on the runway, but that could just as well be an illusion.

So to the point, what kind of warning and ALERT was this?

Equally to the point, I have absolutely no idea whatsoever.

It sounds like it's the result of a US FAA-initiated airworthiness directive (AD), which are usually followed by other civil aviation authorities in other countries. That said, I see -nothing- on the FAA's site, or even the site for the Netherlands' civil aviation authority, or Boeing's site.

Additionally, in many (but not all cases), something that affects the 737-400 also affects the other models in the 737 "Classic" family, i.e. the 737-300 and 737-500, and as my airline operates those two types, we haven't heard of any operational restrictions of landing at flaps-15 only.

On the 737, flaps-15 are the setting for landing with certain types of malfunctions (engine failures/shutdowns, etc.) but I can't imagine this being a factor as the crew is telling you all this -before- you're about to leave AMS.

I want congratulate you for asking a very perplexing question, and I'm very curious to know what the true answer ends up being...  Wink

Anyone else have any idea?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Zweed
Topic Author
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:45 am

Anyone with a bit more insight caring to answer?

I am really curious
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:48 am

Maybe it was an exercise or something. 30 degree flaps are not necessary and maybe they gave you a bullshit story incase some PAX clicked that they were landing fast.

Thanks
Mike
 
cmsgop
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:55 am

This is an Older Warning regarding the Tail Rudder. Boeing wants 737's to land and a faster rate to avoid an out of control rudder mishap (ALA US AIR)
 
Zweed
Topic Author
Posts: 435
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting Cmsgop (Reply 4):

Older?

the captain clearly stated that this was something that took effect os of thursday night
 
2H4
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:00 am




Quoting Cmsgop (Reply 4):
This is an Older Warning regarding the Tail Rudder. Boeing wants 737's to land and a faster rate to avoid an out of control rudder mishap (ALA US AIR)



The tail rudder issue didn't restrict landings to less than 30 degrees of flaps, though.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:06 am

Quoting Cmsgop (Reply 4):
This is an Older Warning regarding the Tail Rudder. Boeing wants 737's to land and a faster rate to avoid an out of control rudder mishap (ALA US AIR)

In the history of the 737 rudder issue, I've never heard the factor of "crossover speeds" related to the landing flap selection.

In any event, I can't find any sign of some new urgent bulletin prohibiting flaps-30 (and presumably, flaps-40) landings in favor of flaps-15 landings. There are plenty of places around the world where the runways are too short so as to even allow a 737 to land at flaps-15. You sure won't do so at places like EYW, MDW, and BUR, amongst others...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
bond007
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:13 am

Strange - first of all, the plane must land at a certain airspeed from a safety standpoint - I cannot imagine that the plane could land at such a higher speed that it could be noticed by the pax!! They sure aren't going to notice a 10-20 knot increase in landing speed.

I also searched bulletins and found nothing!

Perhaps that particualr aircraft had a flap problem and the pilot was BS'ing the pax.

Seems like it was an unecessary comment anyway!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
backfire
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:49 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 8):
Perhaps that particualr aircraft had a flap problem and the pilot was BS'ing the pax.

Pilots don't BS passengers by telling them their aircraft might be unsafe.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:16 pm

Why would the Pilot talk about this.Whats KLM SOP like.You think He felt that the Pax may notice the difference so forewarn them.

Huh? 2
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
bond007
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting Backfire (Reply 9):
Pilots don't BS passengers by telling them their aircraft might be unsafe.

Then why did he say that?? Like I said, most pax, if not all, aren't going to notice a 10-20 kt increase in landing airspeed. Ground speed can vary by more than that anyway depending on the headwind.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Boeing747_600
Posts: 605
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:14 am

I think KLM should have a word with the Capt in question and have him keep such operational details between himself and the F/O in future.
 
crazyro
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 12):

Exactly. Why would the pilot tell the pax this? If nothing else, for some who are scared of flying, this probably did not help their cause.

Then again, he may have been required to. I dunno.
 
flanker
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:28 am

haha, i would have done the same thing. its a pilot with humor and probably a fun personality! scaring people is the best, epsecially while flying.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
Tornado82
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:30 am

Quoting Cmsgop (Reply 4):
(ALA US AIR)

The USAir incident at PIT, I assume that's what you speak of here, happened as the plane was out of 6,000 ft. I'm no 737 pilot, but I somehow doubt flaps are at 30 at 6000 feet.

According to ASN, the flaps were at 1 at that time. Didn't feel like going through the NTSB stuff, time for lunch.

http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19940908-0
 
DCrawley
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:36 am

I searched around and sure didn't find any AD's on the 737 that are to the beat your Captain was boppin' his head to..

-d
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
drinkstrolley
Posts: 484
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:36 am

I would have thought it would have made a few people slightly uneasy knowing there was a potential fault with the aircraft, especially in the wake of the Helios incident.

Anyhow, how much faster would he have landed and would it noticeable to the untrained eye. And more's the point, would anbody complain?

Cheers!
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 17):
I would have thought it would have made a few people slightly uneasy knowing there was a potential fault with the aircraft

This was nothing compared to our problem once on a HPa320, the pilot told us that the cargo door was not closing properly due to a broken metal "thing" according to his words and that we would be late waiting for maintanance. All I could think during that 1 hour flight was the Turkish DC10 that exploded in midair due to the cargo door not being closed properly.
 
andz
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:16 am

Quoting Cmsgop (Reply 4):
Tail Rudder



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
tail rudder

Is there a rudder anywhere else?
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
dc-10 levo
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:20 am

I can't believe the pilot actually told the passengers about this and I can't belive it didn't cause panic in the cabin because that would have been the case in the UK  Smile .

DC-10
 
A330
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RE: What Was The Captain Talking About?

Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:45 am

Absolute CRAP!

There is NO directive issued by ANY state prohibiting or even disencouraging the use of Flaps 30/40 On any B737 series aircraft.
The captain probably wanted to do a practice Flaps15 landing, which is totally normal as it is a NORMAL flaps setting, but very seldomly used (except when the procedure during a non-normal situation prescribes the use) as the speeds are higher.
Onece in a while though, it is a good idea to practice it as it changes the landing technique a bit.
Shiek!

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