D5DBY
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Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:31 am

can a well-trained flight sim pilot make a regular flight with like a Boeing AC?

i know this has been up before...but I cant find that topic with the search function..so can u please post a link or something 2 make me find that thread?

if u like please post any comments on this also.....thanks in advance..  Smile
 
mandala499
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:12 am

search:
"Civilian handling BAe146 or larger aircraft" on the old Tech Ops topics...
there were a couple of these threads around 2002...

But the answer is difficult because one doesn't know what well trained in FS is... what paywares/addons does the person normally use... and the mental character of the person.

Simplest answer would be: NO.
Put a lot of IFs into the condition and you might get a yes... but not without a scratch.
mandala499
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bri2k1
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:27 am

On the other hand, I went from years of flying MSFS with yoke and pedals to the Class D simulators at United's training facility at Stapleton in Denver. I handled the big birds quite well, per the instructors, especially for never having manipulated the controls of a real aircraft.

As a student pilot, I have great respect for the pilots who fly these big, complex airplanes. But, the basic control inputs are fairly straightforward, and a high-sim-time "pilot" could probably do things like adjust engine power and change bank and pitch angles.

Bringing the large plane to a safe landing is another matter. It probably wouldn't happen. But all of us sim pilots and low-time private pilots secretly wish we'd get the opportunity one day, don't we?  Wink Why else would you be asking?

Remember, a good landing is one you can walk away from; a great landing is one in which the plane can be flown again. You might have a remote chance at the first category.
Position and hold
 
corey07850
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 2):
I handled the big birds quite well, per the instructors, especially for never having manipulated the controls of a real aircraft.

There's a difference between flying a plane and "manipulating the controls"... There's no way a flight sim'er will be able to handle flying the plane, navigating, managing the systems, talking to ATC, handling emergencies, etc, etc.

On the other hand I'm sure a flight sim "enthusiast" would be able to take the controls of a plane at altitude and be able perform some turns and other "normal" maneuvers without driving the plane into the ground.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:51 am

Even when flying the cessna on the sim I'd say no. FS is neat, but it's nowhere near the real thing. There are many variables that FS can't replicate. Things happen much "faster" in real life. There's no pause button, and things like checklists and radios don't magically appear with the click of a mouse button. The only thing I've found bennificial with FS is instrument procedures. Even then, there are many differences from the real thing.
DMI
 
SlamClick
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:53 am

Keep in mind that just "aiming" the airplane is a tiny part of flying it. The 9/11 hijackers managed to steer their airplanes to targets despite some of them being what their flight instructors called "terrible" students. I found FS to be an exercise in maneuvering a pixel and very much unlike operating a big collection of systems that is an airliner.

At one airline a non-pilot simulator tech could do things in a 727 simulator that few of the line pilots could equal. What he could not do was pass a routine proficiency check. I don't know if he was ever given any stick time in the real thing.

In FS I was able to land a Learjet on an aircraft carrier and on the road deck of the Golden Gate bridge. I would not attempt either of those feats in a real Lear. On the other hand I was never able to fly it through the blimp hangars at Moffet and I believe I could do that easily enough with the real thing.

About the only practical application I've ever seen for FS is this. If you are rusty in your instrument flying, or lack actual IFR experience - before you take a real flight or a checkride you might do this: Throw a party! Invite a bunch of rowdy friends over and get them drunk. Then you sit in a room full of drunks and fly your FS for keeps, you crash - you die! Take a hammer to your computer and don't ever fly FS again. If you can fly it and comply with procedures etc. with all that going on around you, you just might be ready to take a real IFR flight.
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geoffm
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:53 am

There was a true story several years ago of somebody who went up in a light aircraft with his pilot friend (I think it was on "999" for our UK TV friends). This person had never flown before, or played any flight sims. The pilot had a heart attack while they were up, and he was all alone at the controls of the plane. After managing to contact ATC/tower (can't remember which) he was talked through a landing by a local instructor who happened to be in the area at the time. He managed to land the plane in one piece, the pilot was rushed to hospital, and both were fine.

Okay, so this was not a 747 full of passengers, but the moral of the story is "never say never". It CAN happen.

Geoff M.
 
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Vio
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:09 am

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

What I've learned from Flight Simulator won't do me any good in a real world situation. What I had before starting flight training is "an idea" of what is where and how it's done.

If I were stuck in a situation where I would be required to fly an aircraft (say a 737), I'd probably establish contact with the appropriate ATC and have someone walk me step by step through what needs to be done. I'm sure I'd bring that aircraft close to the airport, etc, but to actually land it, that would be another story...

Strictly based on Flight Simulator... I'd say NO. It can't be done. There are so many factors that affect flight, that I don't even know where to begin and end.

Cheers,
Vio
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AirWillie6475
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:34 am

If you have ever sat on an airliners cockpit seat in real life like a 737, then you will know the answer. A flight simulator pilot would be able to fly the 737 to the scene of the crash. An Airbus on the other hand is a different story.  Smile
 
mandala499
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:35 am

Even my CatB 3 axis 732 simulator session *a nice 5hrs worth going through everything in the book* with only flying Flight Sim beforehand was errr... "difficult"... that's with all the limitations, manuals and emergency procs read and learnt beforehand!

Flying may be easy for some, but throw in a couple of warning lights or even just a Master Caution warning can put the plane waaaay ahead of you... that's when trouble starts and maybe your life's time to go counter has started...

Here's my advise for those walking into a cockpit with dead pilots... regardless if you have 1 or 1 million FlightSim hours with full realism. (Boeings only)
1. Leave the autopilot as it is. Leave the trim and throttles as it is.
2. Grab a headset...
3. Look at the yoke and find 2 buttons... one a thumb trigger (not the trim please), the other an index finger trigger... find out which one has written "A/P Disconnect" on it... and never press that button.
4. Call on the radio... no sound/reply? tune to 121.5...
5. find the tranponder, try and see if you go to 7700 or jsut press the ident button.
6. Follow EVERY instructions... don't try to be smart.

Even non simmers with zero flying hours can make the aircraft end up on the ground in airport perimeter (albeit maybe in pieces but not a CFIT) if contact can be established and assistance fully obeyed.

Mandala499
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SlamClick
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting Vio (Reply 7):
I'd probably establish contact with the appropriate ATC and have someone walk me step by step through what needs to be done.

That brings up a related question. I've wondered for years if someone did that, how long it would take some random ATC facility to get someone on the microphone who is familiar with the plane you are strapped to, and has the cool necessary to talk you through it.

Pilots, would you want to attempt to talk down a non-pilot at the controls? Remember you are probably not sitting in a cockpit, but in a control tower cab. They always show this happening in movies but I do wonder what the reality is. Would the FAA even be permitted to call someone? Would that make the USG liable? Would "good samaritan" laws protect them?

I know lots of controllers are pilots but I've never met one qualified in the 737.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:40 am

I remember a british(?) documentary where a low time PPL on the left seat landed a 747 with just a few tips from the 747 type rated crew. It was firm, but the plane came down in one piece. The host is some rockstar and flies 757s IIRC regularly for a european airline.
 
SATL382G
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):
That brings up a related question. I've wondered for years if someone did that, how long it would take some random ATC facility to get someone on the microphone who is familiar with the plane you are strapped to, and has the cool necessary to talk you through it.

With the prevalence of air phones and F/As with cells, why not just have an F/A call the company direct vs bothering with ATC? From there it should be a fairly easy matter to get the chief pilot for that type aircraft or perhaps a company instructor on the line.

Heck the F/As have probably got the number for crew scheduling programmed in their cell.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
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Vio
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:05 am

SlamClick,

I would imagine the airline that would be in that unfortunate position would try to assist the "pilot flying" in any way they can. Since the 737 was used as an example, we'll stick with that.

I'm strictly speculating procedures here. I have no clue as to what protocol is followed in such situations. Let's say that I was 737 rated pilot and they would require my assistance, I would definitely give it and not worry about what consequences would hunt me should anything go wrong. I really doubt any court would actually try to prosecute a "good samaritan", as you put it.

Besides, it would be practically impossible for someone to foresee anything that could go wrong with the aircraft. It would totally depend on how well the "person flying" is educated in regards to piloting and how well he relays the information to the advising pilot on the ground.

I would imagine their #1 priority is to get that aircraft to a remote area/landing strip, where the possibility of further deaths on the ground is limited or eliminated altogether. After that... I really have no clue what would happen. Try to teach them to use the Autopilot? Hand fly it? I really doubt anyone without flight experience on a large plane can manually land a 737. At best, as I have mentioned in previous replies, they'd crash it on the airport grounds.


If I were in that possition... with the experience I have so far (PPL), I would try to get information on some of the critical things I would have to watch out for. Speeds, flap settings, decent rates, etc. I woud ask LOTS AND LOTS of questions and listen very careful to what they advise. I sure hope I never end up in that possition.


This is my 2 cents... which of course it's worth nothing, considering that the closest I've been to flying a 737, is sit in the cockpit of one for about 15 minutes.
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 12):
why not just have an F/A call the company direct vs bothering with ATC?

Of course you have to keep ATC in the loop, but I was really thinking about those corny movies back in the days before cell phones.

I had the chief pilot's office on speed dial but I don't know if there is anyone in that place that actually knows how to fly an airplane.  Smile

Okay, let's make it a Duchess or a Seneca or a Cessna 310. No chief pilot, no training department staffed with guys just waiting for an opportunity to be a hero. You are up with the owner/pilot and he has a heart attack.

Happened at Renton Washington a few years back, in a C-210 IIRC. Damaged the plane extensively but no injuries.

My question was really about your local control tower. Do they have numbers to call in this event?
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SATL382G
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:10 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):
Of course you have to keep ATC in the loop, but I was really thinking about those corny movies back in the days before cell phones.

Yeah you got to keep ATC in the game but they wouldn't need to teach a guy to land the thing. If the airline involved had a top flight Emergency Operations Center they could handle all the ATC coordination on the ground, hopefully inconjunction with the instructor pilot, and take the ATC burden off our theoretical flight simmer altogether.

A 310 or a Douchess? I thought that's why those pilots got their spouses a few hours with an instructor..... other than that I suppose they just call the local FBO & see who's available..... Could be worse... Could be a neurosurgeon and spouse in a Citation with grandkids in the back.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
RightWayUp
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:26 am

This question has come up many times before, but one thing that is often overlooked is that todays big sims are really quite easy to fly. With zero wind no turbulence selected it really is quite easy to fly. How often in real life do you have a completely smooth atmosphere to fly in. I believe overcontrolling of a jet in those circumstances could quite quickly lead to an upset.
 
Loggy
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:35 am

I am only an fs rated pilot  Smile, but I have landed 767, 777, 747, and tomorrow I'm going try my hand at the 737ng. Ok not the actual things but the simulators at Heathrow and tomorrow the 737 at Gatwick. I had my first hour in the 75/6 bought for me as a present (£300 hour) from the wife about 7 years ago and absolutely loved it, SO much that I've treated myself to a session every year or so since, 1 hour 777, 2 hours 747, and tomorrow 2 hours 737. Get the missus to buy you a session from these guys http://www.virtualaviation.co.uk/ look out for the special deals because it is quite expensive otherwise. I agree I'd not be able to handle the systems and such of a real aircraft in flight, but give me one in vfr and I'd have a good go, but then I'm not just an FS simmer anymore am I !  Smile.
 
AAR90
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting Loggy (Reply 17):
but then I'm not just an FS simmer anymore am I !

Nope, not any more.  Wink Could a quality FS pilot fly and land an airliner? Probably... but it would be neither pretty nor smooth. Odds are most, if not all, the pax would be able to walk away. The plane? Well that's another matter entirely.

OTOH, don't let me anywhere near a PC based FS program. Tried that many moons ago only to learn there is no PC based program that can semi-accurately recreate the "feel" (physical, visual and sound) of any airplane... there still are none today. They're good for the basic procedures and IFR practice, but not good for VMC/VFR. Multi-million dollar full-motion simulators, while much better, have the same limitations (just a lot closer to the real thing). Basic rule-of-thumb: the better a pilot is at "seat-of-the-pants" flying, the less success he'll find in simulations.
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Woodreau
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:17 am

Here's a mp3 of an air traffic controller who talked someone who had never flown this particular type plane down to a safe landing after the pilot was incapacitated... it's a Malibu, not a 737, the air traffic controller is a current CFI.

http://www.natca.org/assets/multimedia/02-Track-02.mp3

[Edited 2005-10-02 02:18:07]
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Jetlagged
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:01 am

Generally speaking, flying a full flight simulator is much easier than the corresponding PC flightsim, mainly because of the additional cues you have and generally higher quality flight models used. Of course on the typical public sim session wind is zero and turbulence set to minimal or off. Flying the aircraft, under the same calm conditions, is easier still. So in clear skies with zero wind a sim pilot might manage to land the real thing with an awful lot of luck. If I were ever in that position I'd set the autopilot up to land if at all possible.

However, once you've seen real sim sessions with pilots being put through the ringer on a VOR/DME approach in cloud with an engine failure and a flap asymmetry (for example) you appreciate just how hard it can become in the real world. You can "learn" to land a PC sim in those conditions, but it would not be the same as the real thing.

That being said, a lot of pilots and airlines use good quality PC flight sims to practice procedures with (no training as such allowed).
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
bhill
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:27 am

Sure, it CAN happen..and we are all promised the Second Coming. Pose the same question to "Surgery Simulators"...sorry, I'm not a pilot, and the reactions needed to respond correctly to all of the sensory input in REAL LIFE..wind..darkness..weather..mechanical failures, that only REAL LIFE experiances in that 30-40-300 ton aircraft can give will get it on the ground in one piece. I'm 41 years of age and before the Gulf Wars, I felt ALOT more comfortable in an airliner..yep it is probably irrational...when there was an older..possibly a Viet Nam era pilot in command...cause he/she probably had to deal with the "curveballs" that combat flying poses to the pilot....yep, like I said, it's not rational, but I have a hunch that all a FS "pilot" would do is make a BIG crater in the ground...

Cheers
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mandala499
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:13 pm

DME approach in cloud with an engine failure and a flap asymmetry (for example) you appreciate just how hard it can become in the real world.

That's what I had... Single engine, HYD A & B out... rudder and aileron trimmer stuck aswell...  Smile

Despite being able to do it, it would be different if my life depends on it!

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
AdamWright
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:42 pm

All you're doing on Flight Simulator is figuring out in what sequence to click buttons. No real flying there.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:35 pm

Depending on the how advanced & accurate the FS is.
T/O & manuvering would be ok,but Landng would require a lot of practice.
Why the question  Smile
regds
MEL
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jamesbuk
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:19 am

my theory is anyone can fly a plane, the real challenge is not crashing
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
D5DBY
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:32 am

after reading some comments.....I think it would be very hard for a fs pilot to make a safe flight....like someone said...you just move a pixel...

when you drive a car, and compare that experience with playing a computer game (car game)......so flying is.....harder (i imagine)

when I think about it.....FS is just a video game....

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
Why the question
regds

always been interested how difficult it is 2 fly a large jet and land it..and interested if u could do it if u like just know the flight controls...and perhaps played fs....

and 2 be honest.....when I play fs and fly the B737....I hardly ever put the bird down safe on the runway...I always comes in 2 fast and high....lol
I probably would need ILS auto-land 2 make it....but I dont know how 2 set it up.......so dont count on me when it comes 2 land in real life....lol


 Smile  Smile  Smile
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:58 am

I have had my PPL since I was 16. I have over 22,000 hours of jet time, with several years as an instructor/evaluator (civilian and military).

To answer your question simply, NO!

The best case scenario would be if the auto flight system were engaged and you happen to be on a "glass" cockpit aircraft. Assuming no MEL items, you would stand a fairly good chance of doing an auto land. However, there is no way a person would be able to make a "regular flight".

If it were that simple, the airlines would be handing out FS programs to anyone who wanted them. You'd see airline pilots paying to work at the airlines!
Fly fast, live slow
 
charliecossie
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:06 pm

Hi Phil,
In many cases pilots *do* pay the airlines to work there!  Smile

Oh, and I once flew the BA 742 sim from LHR to LGW and back to LHR with no problems apart from my "flight engineer" missing the A/T dropping out on finals. Landed quite fast. Taxiied across the grass and through T4.
But, I landed the thing (hand flown down the ILS). Pieceapiss.  Smile'
 
Euclid
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 11):
I remember a british(?) documentary where a low time PPL on the left seat landed a 747 with just a few tips from the 747 type rated crew. It was firm, but the plane came down in one piece. The host is some rockstar and flies 757s IIRC regularly for a european airline.

The show is called Flying Heavy Metal and is presented by Bruce Dickinson, lead singer of Iron maiden.

The guy flying the 747 was sitting in the right seat, and he was not a low time PPL but had a commercial licence and flew Learjets before joining British Airways. He was undergoing his type rating on the 747 together with a few other new recruits and they happened to show this guy doing his first landing with a real 747, after having done simulator training. The other recruits were also in the plane and after each touch and go another trainee would go and occupy the right seat for his turn at his first real 747 landing. Bruce went along for the ride to document this.

Do you really think anyone would allow a low time PPL to just attempt a landing with a very expensive piece of machinery with just a few tips from the real crew?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 11):
The host is some rockstar and flies 757s IIRC regularly for a european airline.

For the record, this is Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden. A true renaissance man, he also represented England at the Olympics in the noble sport of fencing.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 20):
Generally speaking, flying a full flight simulator is much easier than the corresponding PC flightsim, mainly because of the additional cues you have and generally higher quality flight models used

True, and I know this from first hand experience. Landing a "real" 767 simulator was much easier than doing in in FS2004.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 20):
However, once you've seen real sim sessions with pilots being put through the ringer on a VOR/DME approach in cloud with an engine failure and a flap asymmetry (for example) you appreciate just how hard it can become in the real world. You can "learn" to land a PC sim in those conditions, but it would not be the same as the real thing.

True as well, which is why pilot training is more than 3 weeks of night school  Wink

Quoting D5DBY (Reply 26):

when I think about it.....FS is just a video game....

I disagree with this statement.

You can, of course, turn off all the realism options and fly it like an arcade game, but what's the point? If you turn on all the realism options, it becomes pretty accurate. If you buy an add-on (eg Dreamfleet 737), a couple of expensive controllers (eg CH Products), and a cockpit displayer (eg Project Magenta) it becomes VERY accurate.

FS is much more a simulation with a lot of realism than a game.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
B744F
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting AdamWright (Reply 23):
All you're doing on Flight Simulator is figuring out in what sequence to click buttons. No real flying there.

Ummm, no

Quoting RightWayUp (Reply 16):
How often in real life do you have a completely smooth atmosphere to fly in.

How often in FS do you have that if you use real weather?

Personally I have noticed how threatened pilots are by the thought that anyone with a few hours in flight sim can almost do what they do. They fail to understand that being a pilot is more about repetition than it is actual skill. The skill comes in when you are dealing with emergency situations, strong crosswind landings, etc. But if you can fly a complicated aircraft add-on in the game, program the FMC, follow the checklist as a real pilot would do, I think it can be done. I don't think everyone can do it, but lets get over the fact that being a pilot is not like being a rocket scientist
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 31):
Personally I have noticed how threatened pilots are by the thought that anyone with a few hours in flight sim can almost do what they do. They fail to understand that being a pilot is more about repetition than it is actual skill.

Are you for real?

Other than the preflight and post flight checklists, there is no repetition. Being a pilot isn't about repetition, that builds the fundamentals, but being a good pilot is about being able to adapt. It's about being able to think in three dimensions, it's about being able to multi-taks.

I really have to laugh at what you write; "can almost do what they do". That's similar to being "almost pregnant or almost dead". There isn't any such thing. As a pilot you do it correctly or you don't.

I'm not saying being a pilot is rocket science. However, being a commercial pilot, or better yet a Captain is a little more complicated than what you think.
Fly fast, live slow
 
B744F
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:18 am

It is repetition. Repetition in the simulator training for all the failures as well as the normal procedures. Everything else is learned from the experience of doing it, again, by repetition. I never said it wasn't complicated. But the act of flying an airplane in an emergency is not as hard as you think.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 33):
But the act of flying an airplane in an emergency is not as hard as you think.

The fact that you could actually write this for all to see proves you haven't a clue. Once you get the F-18 add on you should be ready for the Blue Angels.

There are so many things involved with an international airline flight that you do not know nor can appreciate from sitting in front of you FS GAME.

"Good Grief, Charlie Brown"
 
B744F
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:29 am

I'm talking about taking the controls, and landing the airplane. You tune in the high altitude VOR by the airport, put the ILS freq in the 2nd nav radio, of course depending on the airplane, either set the auto throttle or manually adjust the thrust, etc. It isn't rocket science, but it can be done. And the blue angels comment is pointless as they are obviously more skilled at precision flying in close proximity to each other. I am talking about taking an airplane from altitude and landing.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:44 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 33):
It is repetition. Repetition in the simulator training for all the failures as well as the normal procedures. Everything else is learned from the experience of doing it, again, by repetition. I never said it wasn't complicated. But the act of flying an airplane in an emergency is not as hard as you think

Yeah, in a controlled environment where the wind is always the same, the conditions are always the same, and the "pilot" has a pause button. No two landings are alike. No two takeoffs are alike. No two go-arounds are alike. No two encounters with windshear are alike. No two crosswinds are alike. Getting the idea? In fact, that repetition idea is something called complacency, and it will get you killed in an airplane faster than any condition that's irregular or dangerous. Look at the NTSB database and see how many times you see the words "controlled flight into terrain".

I encourage you to take some of the money you're dropping on sim add ons and go to your local airport and take a couple lessons. Programming an FMS is great, but when you're flying the airplane, looking for traffic, talking to ATC, and trying to maintain a heading the routine gets a little less routine.
DMI
 
PhilSquares
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Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:45 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 33):
It is repetition. Repetition in the simulator training for all the failures as well as the normal procedures. Everything else is learned from the experience of doing it, again, by repetition. I never said it wasn't complicated. But the act of flying an airplane in an emergency is not as hard as you think.

You're completely wrong. I prefer to watch people during a line check than in a base check. You get a much better indication of their performance. How many emergencies have you had? I'd rather handle one in the sim any day. In line operations, it's a completely different story. Your writing shows your complete lack of understanding.

Repetition can not teach problem solving and three dimensional thinking.

As an instructor, I have witnessed many people who can fly the sim just fine, but when they get into the aircraft, they're miles behind. That's something years of FS can't teach. I don't know what your background is, but I have a feeling it's not aviation. But in my humble opinion, you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about!

[Edited 2005-10-04 01:48:47]
Fly fast, live slow
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:30 am

It is amazing how angry pilots get at the thought that what they do, anybody with proper training can do.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3943
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:09 am

Great queston, but with training on how to use the autopilot and have a high level of comfort with it, FMC operation and same level of comfort and then with the best possible weather, airport, and skilled conversation with a flight tech or line check airman you may make it in a B73NG or maybe B752.....if you can use and are educated in an autoland you will be the next Airport XXXX!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:10 am

Proper training isn't sitting at your computer with a joystick and a few programs that make you think you can fly a plane.

And you're right, almost anybody with years of experience and proper training in actual airplanes can do the job. Ask the passengers aboard that Saudi Arabian airline about how they survived the fire. Oh wait, you can't. He landed the airplane and they died because he didn't stop the aircraft and depressurize it for evacuation.
DMI
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:13 am

[quote=B744F,reply=35] I am talking about taking an airplane from altitude and landing.

Yea, but that isn't being an airline capt. I'm sorry but you haven't a clue.


"but thanks for playing"

"
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:32 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 38):
It is amazing how angry pilots get at the thought that what they do, anybody with proper training can do.

Let's take this stupid thread one step further. Why not develop a medical program that would enable anyone from off the street to do brain surgery. We could have it set up just like FS.

It's experience that makes the pilot, not sitting in front of a computer screen. It's trying to make the VOR/DME approach at minimums on a wet snow packed runway. But, then again, what do I know.?????

Give me a break, it's not about being angry at the idea, it's being angry that people are dumb enough to believe all this stuff someone with no qualifications puts out!

[Edited 2005-10-04 03:33:38]
Fly fast, live slow
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:04 pm




Quoting B744F (Reply 33):
But the act of flying an airplane in an emergency is not as hard as you think.



B744F, you're forgetting one major detail. The act of flying (and landing) a commercial transport-category aircraft has as much to do with proper judgement, prioritization, and decision-making skills as it does with the physical manupilation of the aircraft.

Indeed, the actual physical manipulation of the aircraft, at which you apparently feel you're proficient, often takes a back seat to the aforementioned judgement and prioritization.

It's about accurately and efficiently dividing your attention and effort between dozens of simultaneously urgent matters. One must master both this skill and the actual flying of the aircraft to safely handle routine flight, never mind inflight emergencies.

It's called judgement. Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from successfully recovering from bad judgement.

Can your flight sim teach you that?




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:12 pm

One weakness of FS is the way they do the calculations. You can't get ground effect/near ground turbulence etc etc...! At least AS2 is better in the modelling aspect but the graphics, well... *pukes*

And those brakes at FS... throw braking action poor situations out of the window unless you're on grass or ice.
The yaw damper... LOL, that's a JOKE! Try and do a single engine on DF737 or defaults and the yaw damper's on... You'll end up doing a Lauda 767 west of BKK trying to fly sideways before ending up on the jungle below.

Now, I've observed pilots who fly 737 in real life and in FS... one thing that's for sure... On FS his touchdown is harder than the average sim pilot, and his will stop much shorter than everyone else!

And how many sim pilots will do a cr4pper on a real life landing? Here's an example. My friend had a CPL/Multi/IFR, he's been flying the props on-an-off to keep his license alive while waiting for a jet job... he flies the props VERY WELL. After a few years of practicing flying the 737s (using various addons that 737s pilots recommend, and he is a VERY GOOD sim pilot), and completed his rating simulator sessions, what happened on his first real life 737 landing ? 6 overheads opened and 4 oxy mask covers opened! Let's not add the "almost veering off" and numerous items he forgot while doing his real life touch and goes which he had regularly practiced in the FS and the 737 simulator.

Starlionblue,
Dreamfleet 737 (the FS2002) was horrible, throw the spoilers out on LVL CHG descent and there goes realism out of the window... plus other problems. Go LvlD 763 and PMDG  
---

Being a pilot isn't about repetition, that builds the fundamentals, but being a good pilot is about being able to adapt.

I utterly agree. I know one SIM pilot who brag about how he can fly (props under supervision) yet he fails to understand the basics of navigation (radials, procedure turns)... give him an NDB approach or even anything apart from an ILS approach he goes into a mountain... Why? His mindset does not allow himself to adapt to the situation...

After taking off say runway 07L in CGK (Phil would know what I mean by this), I gave him a "turn right to heading 330" (for direct PLB VOR) and he turns left... The usual command would be turn right 230 pass 6000/8000 then direct PLB, but due to the separation situation I gave him a different instruction and he failed miserably... because he cannot ADAPT.

I'm not saying that sim pilots will fail in these matters, but it all comes down to your MINDSET. Flying is about staying ahead of the situation...

Sorry to say that if your mindset is "I can do what they can do"... in a lot of cases (not saying all or most), you most likely can't!

It's not repetition per se, repetition helps, but can also be a hazard.

But the act of flying an airplane in an emergency is not as hard as you think.

I'm talking about taking the controls, and landing the airplane. You tune in the high altitude VOR by the airport, put the ILS freq in the 2nd nav radio, of course depending on the airplane, either set the auto throttle or manually adjust the thrust, etc. It isn't rocket science, but it can be done.

Let's put you in a simulator, after reading the manuals, and some practice of non-normals. Then you go into an unfamiliar airport, and throw say some of those situations you practiced into it aswell. Here, on sim-checks, they normally get an "unprepared" situation thrown in to the last session... to see how they can react and deal with the situation! Sorry, even some of them end up in a mountain/building...

Now, in real life, how about you do an NDB approach in a mountaineous area with only an NDB to use? Then the runway PAPI isn't calibrated to 3 degrees...

Even programming the FMS can lead you into terrain, remember AA in Cali?

Ever been on a flight deck with a sticker staying: "NO AUTOLAND" or "CAT2 LDG INOP" or "ENG#1 JT8D-9A ENG#2 JT8D-15A" or the "APP" autopilot button/selection having an "INOP" over it?

Ever witnessed how notoriously inaccurate NDBs are while you're on the controls of aircraft?

How do you deal with position errors thanks to the GPS input into the FMC/ADIRU being 50NM out? How you make an emergency landing on an airport in a mountaineous area where there's only a VORDME approach but the DME is down and your plane has no FMC?

That's something years of FS can't teach.

Phil, it can, but it all depends on the simpilot's mindset... and not a lot wanna go through the mindset change.

It is amazing how angry pilots get at the thought that what they do, anybody with proper training can do.

If FS is proper training, then it should have already been allowed as a substitute trainer... As of now, it's only been allowed as a substitute navigational trainer...

What it doesn't teach you is how your eyes can adapt to a real cockpit... look to the front for the outside world, look lower for your primary instruments, look elsewhere for your engine instruments, look elsewhere for cabin pressurization, and systems... and elsewhere is the throttles... and each time you look, it's a few (maybe a few hundred) meters before you look to the front again... And maybe your plane have dropped 1 dot on the glideslope and your speed dropped by 20kts, and the centerline is now 1 dot to the right but your nose is still on the right heading...

It's called judgement. Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from successfully recovering from bad judgement.

Can your flight sim teach you that?


Here's a harsh fact to those who believe FS can replace flight training...

NO...
Your plane does NOT teach you that...
Your CatD 6 axis simulator does NOT teach that...
Your FS does NOT teach you that...
YOUR INSTRUCTOR AND FELLOW PILOTS TEACH YOU THAT!

I have >2000hrs jet time in FS (routine flights, night,day,turbulence,chasing a schedule after delays, etc etc etc)...
I have 6 hrs on a 737-200 type rating simulator (covering a lot of the non-normals)...
I have >20 hrs and cycles flying in a Cessna 402B flying survey flights, IFR, cross country, hell, and a couple of emergencies too!

Can I say that I can walk into a flying 737 and land it safely? NO!

How did I survive all those emergencies in real life and in FS? It's called learning from the pilots, and yourself, and enter the mindset on "how do I stay ahead of the situation"

B744F, have you ever lost situational awareness? in FS? aboard a real aircraft in the flight deck and your at the controls?

Where pilots CAN screw up, sim-pilots PROBABLY WILL screw up...

Mandala499

PS. tune in the high altitude VOR by the airport, put the ILS freq in the 2nd nav radio

Now this worries me... ILS on Nav2? LOL it doesn't depend on the aircraft, it depends on the situation!

[Edited 2005-10-04 08:28:13]
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
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RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:29 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 42):
Why not develop a medical program that would enable anyone from off the street to do brain surgery

You really think too highly of your profession to make such a ridiculous comparison

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 43):
Can your flight sim teach you that?

Yes it can. But to actually do it? There is a chance. But to act like NOBODY can walk into a cockpit and land an airplane is way too full of themself.

Sorry but I would compare being a pilot to being a driver of a semi truck. You can't sit in the seat of a semi and start driving, right? you need the "experience" and "judgement" not learned from a simulator!
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:38 pm

Quoting B744F (Reply 45):
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 42):
Why not develop a medical program that would enable anyone from off the street to do brain surgery

You really think too highly of your profession to make such a ridiculous comparison

No, my comparison was to illustrate how stupid and far fetched your statement was. Pick any profession and you can make the same comparison.

What about getting a drivers license? Certainly you could have a desk top sim program to replicate that experience. I don't know about you but I wouldn't get in a car with that person.

Sorry, arrogance is not one of my traits!

[Edited 2005-10-04 08:45:45]
Fly fast, live slow
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:55 pm

B744F,
Sorry, a semi-truck driver is a driver of a large ROAD VEHICLE. If you drive a car, you drive a ROAD VEHICLE.

Now, a jet is a large AIRBORNE VEHICLE... so, do you fly a small AIRBORNE VEHICLE? If so, sure, U can go into a jet cockpit and start flying... But hang on...

U drive a 1.0 Suzuki carry van, can you immediately go into a ferrari and make the ferrari perform on the first go? No... that's why you have advanced driving schools for that.

Sorry B744F, but I see your comments demeans the semi truck drivers!

Let's define further what "Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight"

Is it...
A. Sim pilot goes into a 737-200/300 cockpit finds crew dead. Can he save the aircraft from certain doom?
B. Sim pilots goes into a 737/320 cockpit and takes it on a regular flight from Seattle to San Francisco... will they survive?
C. Sim pilots goes into a 737-200 cockpit and takes it on a regular flight from Seattle to San Francisco... with a Mode 1 Autopilot (No V/S, no autothrottle, no FMC, no VNAV) will they survive?
D. Sim pilot goes into a BAe 146/A319 cockpit, finds the crew dead... aircraft is circling over PARO, BHUTAN or Katmandu, Nepal, ini minimum visual conditions, fuel is low. Can he save the aircraft from certain doom?
E. Sim pilots take a 737/320 to go Burbank-Key West-Burbank near minimums... will they see the end of day?
F. Sim pilots walk into a 744 cockpit to find the crew dead, he's in the middle of the pacific from LAX to HKG... can he save everyone's lives?
G. Sim pilots decides to take a 744 on LHR-SIN... will they make it?
H. A Sim Pilot/2 Sim pilots decide to land an MD80 in the same conditions as the AA MD80 in Little Rock accident... How will they fare?
I. Sim Pilots takes a 744 at MTOW on SYD-SIN and has engine failure #1 just after V1...
J. Sim Pilots take a 763ER at MTOW on CGK-BAH, and has engine failure #2 at 500ft...

So, which one is it?

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:59 pm

Hello guys,

now I want to reply as well. I read the whole thread and the emotions are high in here.

But we all should be calm and think about it. Lets take 737 for example (most people say it is the easiest aircraft to fly). You are cruising at FL360, both pilots dead (for some reason) and you with 100 hours of FS2004 say you can land the aircraft. Well, ok, here we go! You get to the front, open the cockpit door, have seat and make yourself comfortable. YOU are now the guy responsible for ALL the passengers behind you and the flight attendands! You are sitting in a small tube with 400mph speed, in 36000 on maybe lets say 6 tons of fuel! And YOU want to be the guy to hit a 3000m long and 45m wide strip of beton with FS2004 experience... I would use a parachute when I hear that a "FS2004 qualified guy" is sitting in the front trying to land!

Maybe you get the aircraft towards a runway or close to it! But then: when to set the flaps? what speed to fly? When extend the gear? HOW to fly the aircraft? Where is the wind coming from? How strong is it? Is the runway wet? contaminated? Is it long enough? WHat kind of approach? ILS? VOR/DME? How to set the NAV AIDS cerrectly? Have I forgot anything? Is there anything else to do? How do I brake in those things? Reverse thrust? How can it be engage? This list can be continued a bit more! There are just so many factors which change ervery landing!! Every landing is a controlled collision with a planet!

I think you guys would be able to keep the aircraft in the air, butI seriously doubt you can land is safely.

WILCO737


P.S.: and not to think about any emergency situation! Then it would be even worse....

[Edited 2005-10-04 09:00:41]
 
jush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:10 am

RE: Can A FS Pilot Make A Regular Flight?

Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:14 pm

I tell you what.
A FS pilot MIGHT t/o an AC which he has learned to fly in a good payware addon IF a proper pilot assists and does all the proper startup procedures and taxi it on the runway. It's hard to stay on the track for a not trained pilot.
I have seen some guys flying FS in a full motion simulator of an A320 of LH.
And some of them did beyond expectations and could do a lot more than the instructor expected.
But i tell you what a FS pilot will never land a plane safely if both pilots are impaired or dead (Like in the Helios case). No damn way.

Regards
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.

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