highflyer9790
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Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:30 pm

I was searching through some landing when i came across this one: It is a nice landing with reversers, but how come no spoilers? Since its air force one, is it a security thing? comfort?

http://www.flightlevel350.com/viewer.php?id=3694

Curious to see what we can come up with... bigthumbsup 

Highflyer
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B757
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:38 pm

Maybe they were not necessary.

Does anyone know why did the Jet Blue plane that landed in LAX after an emergency didn't use spoilers either? I thought that maybe because the pilot wanted to keep the nose up the most time possible, or maybe in such cases they must not be used. Does anyone knows the answer?

Regards, José
Siempre hay un día más para volar...
 
highflyer9790
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:42 pm

Quoting B757 (Reply 1):
Does anyone know why did the Jet Blue plane that landed in LAX after an emergency didn't use spoilers

Spoilers would have brought the nose down much quiker than needed.

Quoting B757 (Reply 1):
Maybe they were not necessary.

When landing, i thought the spoilers would be armed to auto-deploy...any more info??
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mandala499
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:12 pm

U can see that the elevators were playing until the nosewheel touched the ground, then spoilers... and the rudders were kicking too...

Some pilots prefer to deploy spoilers manually to give a gentler derotation and if the spoilers were autodeployed... This case he's decelerating more on aerodynamic braking than on wheelbrakes... Something you can do when your landing weight is within a narrowband a lot of the time (unlike airline pilots who don't have this luxury)...

Nothing more than comfort for the pilot's commander in chief. No schedules, no slots to squeeze in... hey, take it low and slow  Smile

Mandala499
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zeke
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:10 pm

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Thread starter):
but how come no spoilers?

I saw spoilers....

Quoting B757 (Reply 1):
Does anyone know why did the Jet Blue plane that landed in LAX after an emergency didn't use spoilers either?

Three reasons....

1) Checklist calls for both engine to shut down just after mains touch, before the nose wheel does, no hydraulics 30 seconds after shutdown
2) Checklist calls for no reverse.
3) Had a landing gear control interface unit fault, which has the squat switch inputs which normally activates the spoilers when armed.

Checklist assumes the nose strut is unsafe and will collapse hence the engine shutdown.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Sabenaboy
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:38 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
1) Checklist calls for both engine to shut down just after mains touch, before the nose wheel does, no hydraulics 30 seconds after shutdown
2) Checklist calls for no reverse.
3) Had a landing gear control interface unit fault, which has the squat switch inputs which normally activates the spoilers when armed.

Zeke, they had:
L/G SHOCK ABSORBER FAULT + NOSEWHEEL STEER FAULT

(Source: http://libsyn.com/media/joepodcaster/fwm85.mp3 )

In that case the checklist calls for a max speed of 280kts/.67 and not to retract the L/G. (The L/G retract is inop anyway)

The airbus FCOM states that the nosewheel may be turned 90 degrees of center with these indications.

The checklist only calls for: during landing, delay nosewheel touchdown for as long as possible.

Source: Fcom 3.02.32 page 1

The checklist does not call for any of the items that you mentioned, Zeke.
The crew apparently also used the unsafe l/g checklist, probably just as a precaution.

Regards,
Sabenaboy
 
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zeke
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:15 pm

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 5):
The checklist does not call for any of the items that you mentioned, Zeke.
The crew apparently also used the unsafe l/g checklist, probably just as a precaution.

Open your QRH to 2.12 and them come back to me.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:29 pm

Quoting B757 (Reply 1):
Does anyone know why did the Jet Blue plane that landed in LAX after an emergency didn't use spoilers either

Anyone having a link to the landing Video.

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 2):
When landing, i thought the spoilers would be armed to auto-deploy...any more info

Probably not Armed.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
Three reasons....

1) Checklist calls for both engine to shut down just after mains touch, before the nose wheel does, no hydraulics 30 seconds after shutdown
2) Checklist calls for no reverse.
3) Had a landing gear control interface unit fault, which has the squat switch inputs which normally activates the spoilers when armed.

Checklist assumes the nose strut is unsafe and will collapse hence the engine shutdown.

Was this done.
regds
MEL
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zeke
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:41 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
Was this done.

Excerpt from the preliminary NTSB report.

Quote:
The captain communicated with the cabin crew and passengers. The cabin crew emptied the first three rows of seats, and moved the baggage as far aft as possible. They placed able-bodied persons in the exit rows, and removed all baggage and paperwork from the seating area. They showed the able-bodied persons how to operate the doors, and gave additional instructions.

The flight attendants spoke to each passenger individually prior to the landing to ensure that they knew the emergency procedures that would take place and how to properly brace themselves. The flight attendants checked and double checked each others' work to ensure that everything was completed and would go according to plan.

The captain took note of the fuel burn to ensure that the center of gravity stayed within limits. The captain also advised the cabin crew that in the event the nose gear collapsed, evacuation from the aft doors was not available so everyone would deplane from the forward exits. The flight crew advised the cabin crew to take the emergency procedures up to the point of egress, at which time the captain would advise the method.

Prior to touchdown, the captain announced to "brace" and the flight attendants also transmitted "brace" over the public address system.

The captain flew the airplane for the landing. He touched down at 120 knots, and applied normal braking at 90 knots. He held the nose gear off of the ground as long as possible. At 60 knots, the flight crew shut down the engines. They did not use ground spoilers, reverse thrust, or auto braking. During the landing, the forward cabin crew could smell burnt rubber. The cabin crew remained at their stations as previously defined by the captain. The air traffic control tower confirmed that there was no fire, and the captain announced this to the cabin crew. After this notification, the passengers deplaned normally using an air stair.

Both nose tires collapsed during the landing roll, and about half of the two wheels was ground off.

Maintenance personnel jacked the airplane up, and removed the damaged wheels. They installed a right nose wheel, and towed the airplane to a maintenance hangar.

Maintenance personnel removed the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and digital flight data recorder (DFDR). The National Transportation Safety Board investigator-in-charge (IIC) sent them to the Safety Board Vehicle Recorder's Division for examination.

Maintenance records indicated that Jet Blue maintenance technicians replaced a proximity sensor on the nose wheel prior to the previous flight's departure from New York earlier in the day.

A post flight maintenance report indicated the following faults:

At 1531 PDT L/G Shock Absorber Fault (2) At 1532 PDT Wheel N/W Strg Fault.

The IIC retained the nose gear assembly and several other components for examination.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:46 pm

Nice Report.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
Maintenance personnel jacked the airplane up, and removed the damaged wheels. They installed a right nose wheel, and towed the airplane to a maintenance hangar.

So the Axle was not damaged.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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zeke
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:07 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
So the Axle was not damaged.

Getting a bit off topic, maybe better to look here Cool JetBlue 292 Photos (by Freedomtofly Oct 5 2005 in Civil Aviation)
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Sabenaboy
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:14 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 6):
Open your QRH to 2.12 and them come back to me.

Zeke,
QRH 2.12 LDG WITH ABNORMAL L/G GEAR

OK, I agree that a nosewheel which is 90 deg. off center is not really "normal".
However, in my opinion, QRH 2.12 is to be used primarily when one of the gear is not locked down for landing.

Fcom 3.02.32 page 1 (L/G SHOCK ABSORBER FAULT + NOSEWHEEL STEER FAULT)
does not call for any of the items you mentioned. It certainly does not oblige the crew to go to QRH 2.12

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
Checklist assumes the nose strut is unsafe and will collapse hence the engine shutdown.

The fact that the Jetblue crew decided to use certain items of QRH 2.12 shows that THE CREW assumed the nose gear might collapse.
The fact that FCOM 3.02.32 page 1 only calls for delaying the nosewheel touchdown, shows me that AIRBUS assumes the nosewheel will NOT collapse in this condition.

The fact that all ended well proves that the crew did an excellent job. congratulations to them.
This does not mean that they followed the best possible procedure.

Personally I think that, once the nosewheel touches down, max. manual braking + reverse + spoilers would be a good idea to stop the A/C in the shortest possible distance.

Whether I'm right or wrong is a pointless discussion, that I don't want to have.

I hope that I'm never in a position where I can prove my point of view.  Wink

Regards,
Sabenaboy
 
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:41 am

Thanks for your information, Zeke
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zeke
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:29 am

Sorry for digressing off topic...

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 11):
I hope that I'm never in a position where I can prove my point of view.

Its one of those command decisions which the PIC had to make. In my view they completed the ECAM for the actual, then referred to VOL 3. You are quite right as to the initial actions for the ECAM, they did the ECAM. What you do after that to come to a successful outcome is the captains decision.

I have looked at the instructor manual, and the flight crew training manual, FCOM, and the QRH to see what they recommend, its somewhat grey.

I have been told that this is the second time this Jetblue captain has landed in that scenario, his previous experience would have no doubt effected his thought process.

Another factor you may or may not be aware of is that whilst holding, maintenance control did remote diagnostics of the aircraft systems, they advised the captain that his nose wheel is straight and would not have NWS on touchdown.

He decided to play it safe, did a fly by of the tower who advised him of the 90 degree nose wheel.

You are quite right that LDG WITH ABNORMAL L/G GEAR if written if your gear fails to extend or have a known down lock issue, they had 3 green indications when airborne.

What is unknown, is once on ground will the forward gear always remain safe.

The drag brace for the nose gear wheel would have had loads and load paths that it was not designed for, "abnormal" loads. What these "abnormal" loads would do to the forward gear assembly is beyond what would be reasonable for a pilot to anticipate.

He decided to play it safe, and assumed the worst case the gear maybe become "unsafe". I would have made the same decision.

My reasoning would be that it is unknown if the gear would remain safe, and that the 2.12 checklist basically takes you into the on ground emergency evacuation checklist.

Bit like briefing an instrument approach, assume the worst and you brief the missed approach, brief for the gear collapse and evacuation if it doesn’t transpire, at least your prepared.

In all his radio communication it was clear his priority was life support, his decisions all times to being conservative, he went to the longest, widest runway around with the best weather conditions and life support available.

I see this all the time, put a scenario to two pilots, and come out with two solutions, neither incorrect, just “personal technique”.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:48 am



Amazing if the Axle was ok.Personally I feel the Inner cylinder would need replacement.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 13):
have been told that this is the second time this Jetblue captain has landed in that scenario

When was the first.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Sabenaboy
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 13):
I see this all the time, put a scenario to two pilots, and come out with two solutions, neither incorrect, just �personal technique�.

Amen to that, zeke.
 
Sabenaboy
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:20 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
When was the first.

Check this out:

http://www.nasdac.faa.gov/pls/portal...UB?EV_ID=20021101029329C&NARR_VAR=

I also heard it was the same captain.
 
DColeMAN
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
Quoting Zeke (Reply 13):
have been told that this is the second time this Jetblue captain has landed in that scenario

When was the first.

The first was in the picture you posted. That was apparently taken from the previous accident in New York. If it was taken in LA then I'm pretty sure that guy in the photo wouldn't be standing there with a rain coat on in high winds.

Dale
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mirrodie
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:21 am

just landed at JFK on a fully loaded (with pax) 767

landed with only spoilers and no reverse thrust. Is that common?
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zeke
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:28 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 18):
landed with only spoilers and no reverse thrust. Is that common?

I always select full reverse, then move it to idle if going to use idle reverse. Needs to be a good day, long runway for me to use idle reverse.

The passengers dont know its idle reverse, takes a few seconds for the engine to spool up for full reverse.

On a long runway where you have to roll through, with an aircraft behind you on finals, you need to keep the roll on the runway going.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why No Spoilers?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 16):
I also heard it was the same captain.

Talk about Luck.Probably practice helped too.  Smile

Quoting DColeMAN (Reply 17):
The first was in the picture you posted. That was apparently taken from the previous accident in New York. If it was taken in LA then I'm pretty sure that guy in the photo wouldn't be standing there with a rain coat on in high winds.

Your correct.The 1st was "Blue Bird" Reg 503.The 2nd was "Canyon Blue" reg 536.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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