avroarrow
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Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:49 pm

Regarding the water bomber in this photo:

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I would assume that it is designed to take heavy airframe loads due to the fact that it is a water bomber, but a manuever like this seems like it might not be one you would want to do that often. Thoughts?
Ed

[Edited 2005-10-06 16:50:48]
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oly720man
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:55 pm

You might not, but the aircraft shouldn't notice since it's not really a high-g manoeuvre.... the plane just can't go fast enough. It will probably suffer more from scooping up the water and taxying over rough ground.
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SATL382G
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:39 am

Unless it's a stunt, what would be the point of releasing the water in a loop?
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:52 am

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SlamClick
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 2):
what would be the point of releasing the water in a loop?

Do it at sufficient altitude to dive back under the falling water. Easy way to wash the airplane.  Smile

I recall an F-8 Crusader shooting itself down by firing a burst in a climb, then diving under it and accelerating.

Kind of a "duh" when you think about it, but "learning curve" is a nicer way of putting it.
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Loggy
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:59 am

I'm no expert but didn't one of those water bombers break in two because of a similar maneuver in the states last year ?. Maybe that photo isn't quite at the right angle ? . If it is then i would like to have seen it for real !.
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:44 am

A tanker is probably so overbuilt that it could handle the flight stresses, particularly after it "Lightens up"

I wouldn't try that with a converted airframe though.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:08 pm

What would be the Water carrying capacity on this CL-415.
Whats the Highest Capacity type available for water bombing purposes.
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redngold
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting Loggy (Reply 5):
I'm no expert but didn't one of those water bombers break in two because of a similar maneuver in the states last year ?

The two waterbombers that went down had structural failure during routine firefighting maneouvres.
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LeanOfPeak
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:32 pm

"Routine" firefighting maneuvers aren't all that routine, and I would expect them to be harder on the airframe than a customarily-performed loop. The firebombers get thrown around a lot.

Also, the two firebombers that shed their wings about a month apart were not CL-215/415's. They were converted aircraft. The first was a 1957 model C-130A. The second was a 1945 model P4Y (A B-24 variant).
 
Electech6299
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:02 pm

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 2):
what would be the point of releasing the water in a loop?

It's too late in the evening for me to look this up...  banghead 
I recall reading about waterbomber maneuvers, and as LeanOfPeak alluded to, some extreme techniques are used for more effective use. Dropping water from a plane is pretty expensive already, so they try to get the maximum use out of it. As anyone who has tried to put out a campfire knows, just pouring water on it is not the most efficient...it takes a lot of water. So IIRC, they try to drop the water in specific patterns to suffocate the fire. Dropping in a vertical climb makes the water both land in a more concentrated location, and fall as slowly as possible so that more evaporates on the way down to increase the density of the air. I can't put all the specifics into my head tonight, if I get the time I'll try to research the article or post a link...

BTW, that's one pilot job I would love to have, but won't take because I have kids... (The same reason I don't ride a motorcycle)
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:36 pm

I imagine this one would have a hard time doing a loop...

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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe

Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:30 pm

Guys,

I do not believe this picture. There is absolutely no reference to the horizon in the picture.
I think it's fake. Probably just a tilted camera or tilted picture.

Just turn the picture 180°, and you can see the plane in a dive with right bank.
Also the water coming out looks just fine then.

[Edited 2005-10-07 12:41:13]
 
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:27 pm

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 12):
Just turn the picture 180°, and you can see the plane in a dive with right bank.
Also the water coming out looks just fine then.

This airplane is pointed almost directly at the sun. Shadows are not distinct, but perceptible at the trailing edges of the wings, nacelles etc. A better cue is the sunflares on the nose and other surfaces pointing in that direction.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 12):
do not believe this picture. There is absolutely no reference to the horizon in the picture.
I think it's fake. Probably just a tilted camera or tilted picture.

LINK
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USAFHummer
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:10 am

Mel, I think he's talking about the picture in the original post, not the Evergreen 747 tanker...

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Sabenaboy
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 15):
Mel, I think he's talking about the picture in the original post, not the Evergreen 747 tanker...

I was indeed thinking about the picture in the original post.  Wink
 
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe

Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:16 am

I think it's real. Same airplane, same place, different photog and an extreme angle.


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HAWK21M
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:31 pm

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 16):
I was indeed thinking about the picture in the original post.

Since it was below the Evergreen pic I presumed it was that.....Use the Qoute option  Smile

Even the Initial pic.It looks real.Remember the Camera Angle will add to the effect.
Look at the rest in the Batch.

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Photo © Thierry Deutsch



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Photo © Thierry Deutsch
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Photo © Stephen J Muscat



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Photo © Charles Polidano
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Photo © Ivan Azzopardi



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Photo © Peter Tonna



regds
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe

Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:40 pm

If you rotate the initial picture 90 degrees right it does make a whole lot more sense. Also noteworthy is that only one photographer, of the many submitting pictures of this display, has submitted pictures of the aircraft inverted - which would have been the highlight of the display.
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:20 pm

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 12):
Just turn the picture 180°, and you can see the plane in a dive with right bank.



Quoting FredT (Reply 19):
If you rotate the initial picture 90 degrees right it does make a whole lot more sense

I've written to Mark.His reply should clarify things.
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Key
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe

Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:14 pm

Quoting FredT (Reply 19):
If you rotate the initial picture 90 degrees right it does make a whole lot more sense.

Absolutely! There are some very interesting physics going on in this photo, like water shooting upwards by itself. Look at the jet in the far right, or the spray just coming out. To have this kind of momentum the plane would have to be in a loop far more tight than it is capable of to 'eject' the water (or literally eject it by pumps or the likes, which it doesn't). Actually, it is flying approximately in a straight line which you can tell by the trailing pattern as a whole.

About the flying, doing a loop is something quite different from a barrel roll with different forces on the airframe and systems. I do not know if the 215/415 is capable of looping but I doubt it.

Noteworthy also is that the sky is darker on the lower right, and brighter on the upper left. I believe this pic shows the aircraft in a steep climb and is rotated CCW to perhaps a max of about 90°. The only thing that might save the day is if this has actually been shot at say 50° camera angle and the photog made the 'wrong' choice as how to position it.

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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:52 pm

Can someone please explain to me why in this image the last sprays of water are NOT being thrown up, following the aircraft climbing attitude:



but on this image the last sprays of water are so SEVERELY being thrown up:



In both cases the flying attitude is the almost the same, going up.

Also, if this was at a public airshow, certanly there were thousands of people attending, does anyone knows of other photos on the internet showing this moment?

Luis
 
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:17 am

Take a look at MIRAGE's post. While it does not tell us exactly whether or not the plane is inverted, it does prove that it is in the process of changing its angle of attack (implying that it could verifyably be in a loop). The water, in theory, should leave the aircraft in the direction of its velocity at that instant (right before gravity acts severely on it). The fact that the angle of the water with the aircraft keeps changing means it is raising its nose.

And MIRAGE, in the first picture, it's the angle that makes it seem like the water is not being thrown up. If you crop the second picture right behind the second arrow from the left, you see the same effect.

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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:53 am

while in loop there is centfugal force in play.

shouldn't water then be going away of the aircraft
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FredT
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:25 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 23):
it does prove that it is in the process of changing its angle of attack

Uhm, no, that it does not prove. It indicates that the aircraft is following a curved trajectory.
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Key
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting FredT (Reply 25):
Uhm, no, that it does not prove. It indicates that the aircraft is following a curved trajectory.

This plane is not pulling up 20-30° more in about its own fuselage length of flying distance, plus the above is only true if you rule out gravity.
Since that's hard to do I say the water that's been falling the longest time in the picture is most effected by gravity. That tells us the water is being pulled roughly to the right in the picture - so where would the earth be?

Erik
 
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting 9A-CRO (Reply 24):
while in loop there is centfugal force in play.

shouldn't water then be going away of the aircraft

There is no such thing in physics as centrifugal force, you have only Newton's laws of motion which explain the appearance of the spray quite well.

The water released from the hopper continues to travel in the direction it was traveling at the moment of separation from the aircraft until other forces act on it. Air friction acts on it immediately, eventually causing it to slow down and to break into smaller gobs. Also gravity begins to act on it immediately and the effect appears to increase as the momentum of the mass of water decreases.

If you look at any one of the apparent "rays" of water spray, it represents pretty much a continuation of the line-of-travel of the airplane at the instant of separation. The fanning out of these rays illustrate the curving flight path as well as the time between parcels of water. The more time since release the greater deviation from the present flight path of the airplane.

Quoting Key (Reply 21):
like water shooting upwards by itself.

In the LABS maneuver used by the Air Force, a bomb weighing thousands of pounds shot thousands of feet skyward "by itself" after being released from the airplane. It travels in the direction of travel. What you do not see is water getting ahead of the airplane. The water at the end of those sprays was released at some time before the picture was snapped.

Quoting FredT (Reply 19):
Also noteworthy is that only one photographer, of the many submitting pictures of this display, has submitted pictures of the aircraft inverted - which would have been the highlight of the display.

At the Reno Air Races a few years ago a very popular race pilot had his airplane (P-51 fuselage with Lear-23 wings) come apart right in front of a hundred thousand spectators, most with cameras in their hands as I did. Seen any pictures of that? Proves nothing!

Quoting Mirage (Reply 22):
Can someone please explain to me why in this image the last sprays of water are NOT being thrown up, following the aircraft climbing attitude:

In the first of the two pictures in your post either the tank was just about empty or he closed the valves. Either way the water flow was stopping and as a result the water did not have the weight that it had at full flow and therefore not the intertia to carry it so far in the direction of travel. Wind resistance and gravity will act much more quickly on smaller droplets of water than on large masses.

Folks, an accusation of faking a photo is a very serious one here.
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:31 am

Quoting Key (Reply 26):
This plane is not pulling up 20-30° more in about its own fuselage length of flying distance

Not entirely sure I understand you but if you're saying this aircraft can't pull tight maneouvres, I saw this aircraft perform on the Saturday (Mark Farrugia's photo was taken on the Sunday) and it pulled some pretty sharp maneouvres indeed. If you want visual proof look at the water behind its tail in these two photos which have already been referenced above.


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Both were taken on the Saturday (the one on the left by me) and they must have been shot just instants apart. I caught the aircraft while it was pulling into its climb, and it did so pretty sharply, yet the elevators look only slightly displaced. If it can pull into a vertical climb while releasing water, why can't it carry the maneouvre through into a half-loop?

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Key
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:43 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
In the LABS maneuver used by the Air Force, a bomb weighing thousands of pounds shot thousands of feet skyward "by itself" after being released from the airplane. It travels in the direction of travel.

All too right of course. However, the 'jet' of water in the right of the pic traveled approximately straight upward meaning that would have had to be the plane's flight direction just below the lower right corner of the pic, where that water was released. Wind admittedly is an uncertain factor but gravity would play no role for those water particles other than deceleration.
The trail of foam on the other hand clearly shows the aircraft flew roughly in a straight line during its release. So how come that dumped water changes direction this way, defying gravity (going further upward longer after release)? That's what I meant with 'by itself'. Once again, the difference in travel direction of the water is at least 20-30° (or rather nearly 40°) and the CL-415 very clearly did not change direction that much during this part of the drop - and I don't think it's able to either. I can only explain this one way, and I tried to in my previous replies.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
Folks, an accusation of faking a photo is a very serious one here.

Very aware of this. I'm just telling what I see, and I also suggested this can be a mistake. It can be hard to remember even with your own airshow photos exactly how you took them, especially without clear reference. My honest opinion is that the photographer got it wrong here, this should have been NOA_angle but the pic itself is great and I wish it were at the right angle.

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 28):
If you want visual proof look at the water behind its tail in these two photos which have already been referenced above.

Too many differences between these photos to make that comparison. The one under discussion is shot roughly from the side whereas these two are much more from behind or above.
I'm not questioning the impressive manouevrability of this plane but the pic we're talking about shows a fire bomber flying approximately straight ahead (but in a steep angle) during the release of the water that we see.

Erik
 
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
There is no such thing in physics as centrifugal force, you have only Newton's laws of motion which explain the appearance of the spray quite well.

The water released from the hopper continues to travel in the direction it was traveling at the moment of separation from the aircraft until other forces act on it.

actualy water should have a speed component due to "centrifugal (inertial)" force. Water is accelerated during loop in the tanks as it wants to keep previous direction thereby acting as if there is virtual force.
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:15 am

NOTE



Those of you who question whether this photo is "real" or "rotated" should kno there is a thread about this in the Aviation Photography forum which is the proper place for such a discussion. This thread was about looping this airplane.

Inverted: How Can That Be Done? (by Skp Oct 8 2005 in Aviation Photography)
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HAWK21M
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:20 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):

Good Find Slamclick......Interesting.  Smile
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:43 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
Those of you who question whether this photo is "real" or "rotated" should kno there is a thread about this in the Aviation Photography forum which is the proper place for such a discussion.

There is now a reply from the photographer in the thread mentioned by SlamClick.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:58 pm

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 33):
There is now a reply from the photographer in the thread mentioned by SlamClick.

His reply & Photos settle the debate finally.  Smile
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MEL
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sovietjet
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RE: Is Looping A Water Bomber Hard On The Airframe?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:24 am

There is centripetal force not centrifugal force. Centripetal force acts towards the center of the loop/circle not away from it.

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