Glom
Topic Author
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New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:18 am

This matter seems to have caused a bit of confusion of late. What wings are new and what are tweaked?

I was under the impression that the 737NG had an all new wing, but others have recently said it was just tweaked. I definitely know the flaps are new.

I was also under the impression that the A340NG had an all new wing, partly because it wasn't designed as a compromise to allow either two or four engines to be used.

Many say the A350 has an all new wing, although some say it's just a tweaking of the flaps and slats.

Apparently the 747 has had the same wing since the start although the wingtips were changed for the -400 and for the ADV, which will also have new flaps.

The 787 is supposed to have a wing for the -3 and another for the -8 and -9. Are the wings totally different or is it just the wingtips?

The 777 and 767 have always used the same wing although the souped up variants got raked wingtips.
 
SlamClick
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:05 am

737NG may have the same airfoil section, shape etc. (I don't know.) but it is absolutely, positively new sheet metal built in new jigs and whatnot. It is much longer and of considerably greater chord at any station than the original 737 wing.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:41 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
737NG may have the same airfoil section, shape etc

The airfoil is an improved, supercritical section. Consider that cruise speed went from .74M (Classic) to .80M (NG) while wing sweep was held at 25 deg.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
phollingsworth
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:28 am

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
The 787 is supposed to have a wing for the -3 and another for the -8 and -9. Are the wings totally different or is it just the wingtips?

Two things change on the -3 wing over that for the -8 or -9. The -3 wing has the winglets versus the swept tips and uses thinner gage materials. The big aerodynamic difference between the -3 and the -8/9 is the larger vertical stabilizer with the tabbed rudder. This was, as I understand it, determined by an "icy/slippery" runway requirement.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:55 am

I am no techician, but as far as I have read, the A340-600 wing is a modified wing with greater wing area, but it is not entirely new...
 
aeroweanie
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:13 am

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
I was under the impression that the 737NG had an all new wing, but others have recently said it was just tweaked. I definitely know the flaps are new.

The 737NG has a brand new wing compared to the 737 Initial and Classics. The planform is different, with more chord and span and as OldAeroGuy indicated, the airfoils are improved.

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
I was also under the impression that the A340NG had an all new wing, partly because it wasn't designed as a compromise to allow either two or four engines to be used.

I take it you are referring to the A340-500 and -600. This wing has a plug added to extend the chord, but otherwise the wing is the same as the earlier A340 models. The chord plug is rather novel - this has never been done before.

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
Many say the A350 has an all new wing, although some say it's just a tweaking of the flaps and slats.

Its hard to know what the A350 wing will be. It started out as a minimum change A330 wing, but I think it started changing to gain performance.

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
Apparently the 747 has had the same wing since the start although the wingtips were changed for the -400 and for the ADV, which will also have new flaps.

The 747-400 has a span extension, along with winglets, that the earlier models didn't have. The SP had a simplified flap system. The ADV is supposed to gain a raked wing tip (replacing the winglets) and a trailing edge wedge.

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
The 787 is supposed to have a wing for the -3 and another for the -8 and -9. Are the wings totally different or is it just the wingtips?

Nothing official has been announced.

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
The 777 and 767 have always used the same wing although the souped up variants got raked wingtips.

All 767 models share the same wing, except the -400, which has a raked wing tip added. Simlarly, all 777 models share the same wing, except the -300ER and -200LR, which have a raked tip added.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:44 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 5):
I take it you are referring to the A340-500 and -600. This wing has a plug added to extend the chord, but otherwise the wing is the same as the earlier A340 models. The chord plug is rather novel - this has never been done before.

The wingspan is also greater on the A345/346 than the A342/343, so there's gotta be something more than just an extended chord plug, right? A chord plug is pretty cool though...

~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
aeroweanie
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 6):
The wingspan is also greater on the A345/346 than the A342/343, so there's gotta be something more than just an extended chord plug, right? A chord plug is pretty cool though...

You're right - the A340-500/600 wing also has a span extension that I forgot about.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:08 pm

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
I definitely know the flaps are new

Apart from Deletion of the TE Fore flap what is the Mod.

Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
and for the ADV, which will also have new flaps.

Whats the new Flaps about.

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 5):
The chord plug is rather novel

Any Details.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
mrocktor
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 7):
You're right - the A340-500/600 wing also has a span extension that I forgot about.

As far as I know, it has a plug at the root of the wing, which increases span and chord. The whole structure outboard of this plug is identical to the original A340 wing though - which is pretty clever from the industrial point of view.

mrocktor
 
aeroweanie
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:13 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 9):
As far as I know, it has a plug at the root of the wing, which increases span and chord. The whole structure outboard of this plug is identical to the original A340 wing though - which is pretty clever from the industrial point of view.

The outboard structure of the A340-500/600 wing is not identical to the earlier A340 wing. To quote the a.net info page: "The wing is based on the A330/A340's but is 1.6m (5.2ft) longer and has a tapered wingbox insert, increasing wing area and fuel capacity." I've seen info on this tapered wingbox insert (a chord plug) in several engineering publications. Also, the wing has a tip extension, not a root plug.
 
Glom
Topic Author
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:44 am

I suppose another question would be at what point does a wing become a complete redesign? We are talking about the swept supercritical variety these days. If they alter the chord, the length etc, at what point does that become sufficient for the wing to be called different rather than just modified?
 
phollingsworth
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 5):
Simlarly, all 777 models share the same wing, except the -300ER and -200LR, which have a raked tip added.

The 200LR/300ER also have a modified trailing edge. Boeing borrowed this from the MD-11. It is easier to manufacture and actually produces less drag.

The MD-80 wing is a basic DC9-30 wing with a root plug. It is pretty obvious when looking at the wing where the plug is.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
Apart from Deletion of the TE Fore flap what is the Mod.

I think Boeing also changes the actuation mechanism. The old 737 has flap carriages that resembled those on the 727 and 747. I think Boeing went to a design that is more similar to the 757, 767, and 777, though I could be wrong.

As for a new wing. My metric is any time you change the airfoil substantially at every cross section.
 
David L
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:35 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 11):
I suppose another question would be at what point does a wing become a complete redesign?

Very simple. According to many on the Civil Aviation discussions, if your favourite manufacturer changes the wing in any way it's all new but if "the other lot" do it, it's a desperate tweak of old technology.
 
mrocktor
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 10):
The outboard structure of the A340-500/600 wing is not identical to the earlier A340 wing. To quote the a.net info page: "The wing is based on the A330/A340's but is 1.6m (5.2ft) longer and has a tapered wingbox insert, increasing wing area and fuel capacity." I've seen info on this tapered wingbox insert (a chord plug) in several engineering publications. Also, the wing has a tip extension, not a root plug.

Interesting, my sources are clearly wrong in this case.

mrocktor
 
gigneil
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:38 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 4):
I am no techician, but as far as I have read, the A340-600 wing is a modified wing with greater wing area, but it is not entirely new...

See below.

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 5):
Its hard to know what the A350 wing will be. It started out as a minimum change A330 wing, but I think it started changing to gain performance.

Well, it is now going to be constructed almost entirely of composites, which is fairly new.  Smile

It also will feature the droop nose from the A380 which drastically improves low speed lift and replaces the inboard slats. The leading and trailing edges of the wing will be completely new. The winglet is also all new.

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 5):
The ADV is supposed to gain a raked wing tip (replacing the winglets) and a trailing edge wedge.

The 747-400ER's wing already features the trailing edge wedge... this will port to the ADV I have no doubt.

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 10):
Also, the wing has a tip extension, not a root plug.

No it definitely has a root plug. This was as much for fuel capacity as it was for span.

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 12):
The 200LR/300ER also have a modified trailing edge.

They don't, actually, feature the MD-11's trailing edge wedge or any other aerodynamic improvements other than the raked tips which add 13 feet to the total span.

N
 
aeroweanie
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RE: New Wings, Old Wings, Up Wings, Down Wings

Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 15):
No it definitely has a root plug. This was as much for fuel capacity as it was for span.

According to the drawing publisehd in Flight International in the June 12-18 2001 issue, there is a 1.6m wingtip extension, not a root plug. The 2001-2002 Jane's All The World's Aircraft concurs.

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