airfly
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:43 am

Would This Be One Of The Best Ways Of...

Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:24 am

Hello there,

I was thinking about a very foggy day in which an aircraft would fly under special VRF conditions, for example:a Cessna Citation was on approach about 5 miles out on IMC donditions...
The aircraft was heading off coures on 360, the actual RW was on about 045. Forget GPS and all other "computer" modes landing and focus on "pure" Bearing navigation. ATC would say: Turn right heading 090 and then turn left heading 045 for final approach? Here is my the hand-writing exmaple:  Smile

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/Lucca9/RWheading.jpg

The point is: Is this the best way for a landing without any other type of approach systems or is there any much better ways in which you could safly land an aircraft under IMC conditions via bearings like my example?

Cheers
Lucca M.
L - I - B - E - R - A - L
 
corey07850
Posts: 2335
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:33 am

RE: Would This Be One Of The Best Ways Of...

Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:43 am

If I understand correctly you are asking if it's possible for ATC to essentially guide the plane down to landing should it lose all visual cues, and not have the used of navigation radios/instruments? If so, the answer is absolutely!

While not all airports have the capability, some airports have what's called Precision Approach Radar which not only gives them the location of the aircraft, but the ability to see it's glide path:

http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/navaids/par/images/fig13_4.jpg

http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/navaids/par/images/fig13_5.jpg

If the airport in your case had PAR, it could have verbally directed the Citation down to the runway based on the display of the radar scope....

BTW, love your approach lights  Wink
 
SlamClick
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Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Would This Be One Of The Best Ways Of...

Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:04 am

Well, I'm not sure I understand why you want the arrival to turn to 090. Why not just align him with the final approach course a bit farther out and with a minimum of maneuvering. (It is always easier to maneuver less.)

Quoting Airfly (Thread starter):
an aircraft would fly under special VRF conditions, for example:a Cessna Citation was on approach about 5 miles out on IMC donditions

Big thing here is that we don't fly VFR under IMC. That is the whole point of instrument flight.

One little nitpick: You have your runway labeled 26L but show the approach course to be 045. That is more or less in the wrong direction. Runway 26 would have a magnetic heading of 260 plus or minus about five degrees. If the final approach course is aligned with the centerline, the runway would be designated either 04 or 05.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
airfly
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:43 am

RE: Would This Be One Of The Best Ways Of...

Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 2):
Big thing here is that we don't fly VFR under IMC.

But you could fly special VFR if you are unable to comply with IFR.

A private pilot will only be cleared for special VFR if the holds an IMC rating, unless the visibility is at least 5nm...

Those points are correct aren't they?

Cheers

Lucca M.
L - I - B - E - R - A - L
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Would This Be One Of The Best Ways Of...

Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:29 am

Well, I am going to have to plead some ignorance here.

First I don't know, but I assume that you are talking about the rules in the UK, about which I know almost nothing.

In the US, "special VFR" is authorized under FAR 91.157 below 10000'MSL within the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface.
1. With an ATC clearance
2. Clear of clouds
3. Visibility is at least one statute mile (except for helicopters)
4. Between sunrise and sunset
5. The pilot is qualified for instrument flight
6. The airplane is equipped for instrument flight per FAR 91.205 (d)

Now personally, if I am instrument rated and flying an instrument-legal airplane why the hell would I want to risk my life scud running instead of simply making an approach? (That is just how I feel about it.)

Most instrument rated (and competent) pilots I know consider special VFR to be a license to commit suicide. I mean what are the arguments for it?

  • You are not instrument current? NO! Go inadvertent IFR at low level and you decrease your chances of survival.

  • You don't really trust that attitude indicator. NO! See the objection above.

  • You don't want to get in a long line of traffic in the local holding pattern, waiting their turn. NO! You just want to be one more thing for them to worry about.

  • Ice is reported on the instrument approach procedure. NO! You could still get ice below it with "visible moisture" in the air and remember your vis. could be all the way down to one mile in that moisture.


  • No, I've never thought special VFR was a very good idea and I'd like to hear some other pilots out there weigh in on it.

    Oh, I once did scud-run in "special VFR" in a Super Cub and used a procedure a little bit like yours: West to clear the hills. South to find the river. West to find ____ Boulevard. Southwest to find the approach lights. Never again!

    After I landed the tower asked my whereabouts. They could not see me rolling out on the main runway. They did not even see me taxiing past the tower. Never again! (Note to the FAA: I'm making this up!)

    I got trace rime ice flying through the "one statute mile" of visibility in ice fog. Did I mention never again?
    Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
     
    corey07850
    Posts: 2335
    Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:33 am

    RE: Would This Be One Of The Best Ways Of...

    Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:09 am

    Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):

    No, I've never thought special VFR was a very good idea and I'd like to hear some other pilots out there weigh in on it.

    The only time I've seen it to be of any use is with chopper pilots flying Special VFR from NYC over to TEB to bring the bigshots to their private jets... I would personally never fly an airplane under SVFR....

    As to the original poster, the information I gave is really reserved for an emergency when the nav equipment required to make the approach has failed
     
    Alias1024
    Posts: 2223
    Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

    RE: Would This Be One Of The Best Ways Of...

    Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:21 am

    Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):
    No, I've never thought special VFR was a very good idea and I'd like to hear some other pilots out there weigh in on it.

    From my understanding, aircraft under special VFR have the same separation requirements as regular VFR traffic for ATC purposes. Imagine the Embry-Riddle fleet trying to return to Daytona Beach from the practice area. 20 airplanes trying to get in at once. If they can all take special VFR, ATC can get everyone on the ground much more quickly than if everyone has to have IFR separation.

    Generally I would prefer to stay IFR as well, but if I can get into the airport 10 minutes earlier by going special VFR, it might just be worth it.
    It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
     
    320tech
    Posts: 489
    Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:38 am

    RE: Would This Be One Of The Best Ways Of...

    Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:40 am

    Airfly, you may want to peruse this pdf file - page 12 is a good place to start.

    http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/DAP_ACD_VFR_Guide.pdf

    I notice that one item in that document mentions that it's applicable to aircraft under 5700 kg / 12,500 lbs, so depending on which version of the Citation you're flying, it may not be available anyway.

    Canadian regulations and the UK's are fairly similar, as far as I can see. The pilot has to ask for it, he / she must remain clear of cloud and in sight of the ground, and there is a visibility requirement to meet, too (I find the mix of metric and imperial measurements in that pdf file to be quite confusing - how do you put up with it?).

    In short, a pilot should not be in a position where ATC has to steer him in to an ILS approach, because he should have the ground in sight all the time.
    The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.

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