TWAalltheway
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So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:17 pm

Hello all
After reading the heated discussion (and many over the years) regarding the on going debate of whether an avid F.S. pilot can take the controls of an airliner in flight, and successfully land it, that got me thinking, could a private pilot, with IFR licensing, or just IFR knowledge pull it off? I agree, that even though Microsoft has done quite a swell job of creating very realistic control panels and emulating aerodynamic properties, it is still nowhere near the real thing. I realized that after my first flight in the left seat in a C-172. Real flight is just so much different. Not to mention the psychology and decision-making of it all that MFS simply cannot teach.

I am currently a private pilot, nearly finished with the training for my instrument rating. I'd like to hear opinions from the "experts" here, if you will, do you think it would be possible to set a jetliner down safely if the crew simultaneously suffered heart attacks? I personally believe that there is a much greater chance that a private pilot,(of course with no training on a jet or any heavy plane) with firsthand knowledge of the handling of an airplane, and even better, an IFR pilot with ATC knowledge, and navigation system experience, would be able to set the plane down more safely than an F.S. pilot with no flight experience whatsover. Obviously a pilot would know how pitch/power relationships work, and setting airspeeds, etc, and would probably be more proficient in communicating with air traffic control, or being able to initiate contact if out of range of the last controller.

Not looking to get flamed, but what do you other private/IFR pilots think? Or others, feel free to criticize, the last debate on this got rather interesting. I don't post much on this website, so I'm not really going to care a whole lot if I get pounced.

TWAalltheway
 
AdamWright
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:49 pm

Probably better chance than the FS pilot.. but you have to remeber.. when you're flying metal that big, knowing the Systems is 95% of the flying. Stick and Rudder is the easy part... knowing how to operate the systems and troubleshoot is the difficult part.

-Adam
 
flyf15
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:04 pm

I'm a CFI and I've experienced more than my share of private pilots, some with a lot of hours in their logbooks, that can barely fly the plane they owned and were trained on safely... let alone an airliner.

Think about it, say you make a step up into just the next highest class of airplanes from what you've flown. A Cessna 210 or Bonanza is going to be a lot to handle for a pilot who hasn't flown anything bigger than a 172... depending on the background and skill of the pilot, they may not even be able to successfully complete that flight. Those airplanes (in relation to airliners) are all very similar. Let alone sticking a 172 driver in a light twin when they've had no prior experience.

You're going to need to be nice and comfortable in something that flies like an airliner with similar speed and complexity to even have a snowball's chance in hell. I'm talking somewhere in at least the King Air range and probably even light jets and up. Even with my CFII/MEI and 2 logbooks, I don't feel like I'd have any real chance at all of getting 'er down safely.

[Edited 2005-10-11 07:13:16]
 
Woodreau
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:29 pm

As you move up in airplanes from a 172, you'll notice that your first flight in the higher performance aircraft will feel like your first flight in a 172.

You'll feel behind the aircraft in your first flight in a complex 172RG/Arrow.
Then you'll get to experience the same feeling flying your first multi-engine aircraft.

You'll need to get comfortable with each aircraft as you move up.

When I finally moved up to a regional aircraft, I was very comfortable flying the full motion level D simulator after the allocated 32 hours of sim time, but when I got to the actual aircraft for IOE, it was like I hadn't had any of that training before. It took a few legs before I was mentally keeping ahead of the aircraft.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
pilotpip
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:35 pm

Think about the first time you were in the clouds (if you have been) and think about how much you were doing. Now try doing that at about three times the speed, with a ton more to do. I would have to say no as well. It's not quite as simple as "chop and drop" like the 172. If you haven't flown a high performance (something that isnt't a cessna to get full effect) airplane, I'd suggest doing so just to get an idea how much faster things happen.

I have a few hours in a King Air, and a couple hours in a ERJ sim, but I don't think I could do it either(I could probably get a 1900 on). Depending on how the 172s you are flying are configured it can even get confusing when flying the same airplane with something like different radios. Throw in new systems, different radios, controls, etc. Now do this at three times the speed.

The first time I flew a Seminole I was so behind it that my head spun for a day. Throw in the fact that it was the first time I was in a complex airplane, and the first time I was using a Garmin 430 and that 1.5 hour flight seemed like about 10 minutes. The amazing thing about that is that final was only flown about 20 knots faster than you would in a 172. As I fly more aircraft I find this transition taking less time however I find myself doing at least a quick once-over through the POH to refresh myself on speeds before jumping in an aircraft I haven't flown recently.
DMI
 
saintsman
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:04 pm

Many years ago, as a ppl, I had the chance to fly a large 4 engined airliner on a test flight. I did a circuit at 3000ft down to 400ft before we did a go-around.

I was very familiar with the aircraft, being an engineer on them, and knew where all the instruments and controls where and what they did. I had a flight eng look after the power and the captain took care of the radio.

The circuit was fine. It was the last bit that got hard. Admittedly there was a 30kt cross wind but I really struggled to line the aircraft up. It was the only time I've flown that the runway seemed really small.

I had flown the aircraft previously so I was familiar with the feel simulator, something that is never mentioned by the FS players by the way, and it was really hard work once on finals.

Could I have landed it? Maybe, but it wouldn't have been pretty, though in an emergency you don't get extra points for style.

As for someone not familiar with the aircraft? Perhaps but it would be more luck that judgement.
 
mandala499
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:31 pm

I'll stick with:
1. Leave the autopilot as it is. Leave the trim and throttles as it is.
2. Grab a headset...
3. Look at the yoke and find 2 buttons... one a thumb trigger (not the trim please), the other an index finger trigger... find out which one has written "A/P Disconnect" on it... and never press that button.
4. Call on the radio... no sound/reply? tune to 121.5... Dunno how to tune that radio?
5. find the tranponder, try and see if you go to 7700 or jsut press the ident button. (ATC will eventually find you on a freq somewhere... if you're patient enough)...
6. Follow EVERY instructions... don't try to be smart.


Regardless of whether the would be hero is a PPL or a prop CPL/Multi/IFR or an FS Simmer....

Now there are cases where FS Simmers can be more familar with the aircraft than the average PPL pilot (they don't carry the "prop baggage" as one instructor says), but, those 6 points above is crucial regardless... don't bother trying a perfect landing... Just put the plane down in landing config "somewhere within the airport perimeter" where rescue is standingby....

Could I have landed it? Maybe, but it wouldn't have been pretty, though in an emergency you don't get extra points for style.

Saintsman,
LOL  Smile In these cases, the points would be the % of survivors  Smile style points/bonuses only come if you score 100% first  Smile

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
jush
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:42 pm

Quoting TWAalltheway (Thread starter):
Hello all
After reading the heated discussion (and many over the years) regarding the on going debate of whether an avid F.S. pilot can take the controls of an airliner in flight, and successfully land it, that got me thinking, could a private pilot, with IFR licensing, or just IFR knowledge pull it off? I agree, that even though Microsoft has done quite a swell job of creating very realistic control panels and emulating aerodynamic properties, it is still nowhere near the real thing. I realized that after my first flight in the left seat in a C-172. Real flight is just so much different. Not to mention the psychology and decision-making of it all that MFS simply cannot teach.

I am currently a private pilot, nearly finished with the training for my instrument rating. I'd like to hear opinions from the "experts" here, if you will, do you think it would be possible to set a jetliner down safely if the crew simultaneously suffered heart attacks? I personally believe that there is a much greater chance that a private pilot,(of course with no training on a jet or any heavy plane) with firsthand knowledge of the handling of an airplane, and even better, an IFR pilot with ATC knowledge, and navigation system experience, would be able to set the plane down more safely than an F.S. pilot with no flight experience whatsover. Obviously a pilot would know how pitch/power relationships work, and setting airspeeds, etc, and would probably be more proficient in communicating with air traffic control, or being able to initiate contact if out of range of the last controller.

Not looking to get flamed, but what do you other private/IFR pilots think? Or others, feel free to criticize, the last debate on this got rather interesting. I don't post much on this website, so I'm not really going to care a whole lot if I get pounced.

TWAalltheway

Hehe i love ya for that question.

Quoting AdamWright (Reply 1):
Probably better chance than the FS pilot.. but you have to remeber.. when you're flying metal that big, knowing the Systems is 95% of the flying. Stick and Rudder is the easy part... knowing how to operate the systems and troubleshoot is the difficult part.

-Adam

I defenitely concur. Maybe you should now have a FS pilot it the F/O seat advising you how to set the autopilot and teh FMC/FMS. You can't imagine how good for example the PMDG 737 emulates the FMS of the Boeing. I had an AB Captain once on the controls and he was amazed that so much of the plane was simulated (even the overhead and that shit).
So the FS Captain might help you to program the shit while you are flying it

But still think. I hope that never happens so i won't sit in a pressurized metal tube with a PPL student and an "FS-Hero" on the controls  vomit 
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:44 pm

I would like to put it this way.....A better chance.  Smile
But then it also depends on the Individual & the Individuals ability to adjust.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:59 pm

Since this new post regarding a PP landing an I airliner I want to make one last post on this subject(no more FS stuff).

The one thing I haven't seen anyone say here (or the other FS post) is regarding control pressures , a/c inertia and runway sight picture. I want to make this somewhat brief so I don't plan on going into a detailed explanation.

1. control pressures are much different and in some cases much heavier than a C-172 or your PC yoke. Even for us MD-11 guys that can swap between a MD-11 and a MD-10 (DC-10 controls) it's ALWAYS a big adjustment and if one doesn't fly one or the other often your landings are interesting at best.
2.A/c inertia is another factor that if not accustomed to will be disastrous close to the ground. A large heavy jet takes much more time to change direction than a C-172 and that's why most airlines have strict policies regarding a "stabilized approach". A high sink rate in a C-172 can be stopped in only a few feet with a small pitch change but it will take much longer and much more altitude in a big jet. Stopping a high sink by increasing pitch close to the ground usually drives the mains into the pavement with a bang.
3. Sight picture...I've seen it hundreds of times and experienced it myself as well that when transitioning from an a/c that sits high above the ground to an a/c that sits low (or vise versa) it takes many repetitions to get your eye readjusted to the new sight picture. If you're transitioning to a big jet from something low to the ground I promise you you will fly it into the ground no matter how much the aural warning calls out 50-40-30-20-10. The opposite will be true when moving into a lower a/c and you will flare at 30' and wallow down to the runway like a sick duck.
For anyone that only wants to address an auto land in this case thats fine, I suppose, but that would still not be as easy as you may think but I'll end this here. thanks
 
PhilSquares
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:41 pm

To piggy back on what CosmicCruiser wrote:

First of all, please look at the Helios accident. In that, it would appear a low time pilot, the flight attendant, tried to get control of the aircraft after both pilots were incapacitated. Things didn't work out too well.

Secondly, I can remember flying with students in the T-38. It was an eye opener. The first flight was after they had 90 hours in the T-37, plus about 20+ hours in the T-38 simulator. Most pilots transitioning were so far behind the aircraft it wasn't funny. Just little things like pitch control, a 1 degree pitch change resulted in a +/- 900 FPM climb or descent, at cruise. I can continue with all the problem areas most pilots faced. Granted the learning curve was pretty steep and around 80% had no problems at all. The other 20% got to try a new career.

Finally, there is the experience gained from flying. Things like pitch and power settings for certain phases of flight. For instance, on the 744, at medium landing weights, flaps 25 on G/S takes 1.04 EPR, while flaps 30 is 1.08. Those power settings will get you pretty close. My guess would be if the PP tried to fly using manual throttles, you'd see some pretty big airspeed excursions.

Granted this thread is slightly different than the other F/S one where the question was asked about a "normal" flight, in this case it's about taking control in flight and landing. The bottom line, in my opinion, is he/she would have a much better chance than a F/S pilot, but I wouldn't want to be on the aircraft.
Fly fast, live slow
 
SlamClick
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:21 pm

Some very good responses above and I'll agree with the program offered by Mandala499. In fact, I have an ATP with six type ratings and have flown a couple more as f/o so I'm not typed but have several hundred hours in them. If I found myself aboard an MD-11 which I've never flown I would not let my famous "ego" get in the way. I'd do just what he suggests.

I believe that luck would still be the real pilot-in-command. I further believe that the FS pilot would need more luck than the private pilot to pull it off.

Now, how about Doris Day? Could she land an airliner?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
SuperD
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:27 pm

Quoting AdamWright (Reply 1):
Probably better chance than the FS pilot



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
A better chance.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
he/she would have a much better chance than a F/S pilot, but I wouldn't want to be on the aircraft.

I agree. Someone who has flown a light aircraft might be able to take instructions a bit better over the radio. "Increase back pressure", etc. I still wouldn't want to be on that aircraft, either.

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 3):
When I finally moved up to a regional aircraft, I was very comfortable flying the full motion level D simulator after the allocated 32 hours of sim time, but when I got to the actual aircraft for IOE, it was like I hadn't had any of that training before. It took a few legs before I was mentally keeping ahead of the aircraft.

My experience exactly. After hours in the sim and quite a bit of prop time in my logbook, the first time I landed a regional jet would not have been pretty without an instructor Captain in the left seat talking me through it. It took me several approaches to get used to the thrust response delay on a jet. You may intellectually know that there will be a delay between thrust lever movement and engine response, but it takes a while before you're automatically compensating for that during a landing when everything else is going on around you. When I was a working CFI I don't think I could have landed a regional jet safely. Right now I doubt I could land a large Boeing jet safely. I think I could get it on to the runway, but the approach would probably not be stabilized and thus the landing would not be very safe. Things happen too quickly on a jet to allow for a big margin of error.
 
B744F
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:29 am

Again, this is a "is it possible?" question, not a, "well I wouldn't want to be in the airplane" or "its so much harder to control than a small plane"

These obvious sidestepping answers fail to address the actual question of whether or not a PP can do it... and the answer is, yes. It is possible.
 
beechnut
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 9):
Sight picture...I've seen it hundreds of times and experienced it myself as well that when transitioning from an a/c that sits high above the ground to an a/c that sits low (or vise versa) it takes many repetitions to get your eye readjusted to the new sight picture.

This is very true. I've put my trusty old Sundowner up for sale and bought myself a Beech Skipper. With fuel at $5.73/gallon, I suffered from the same malaise as the airlines, burning fuel to haul around empty seats. So I moved down to this neat little two seater.

The Sundowner was really nice to land (in spite of the horror stories) and I could consistently grease it on.

You'd think the Skipper would be a pice of cake, after all everything is happening 10 knots slower. Instead every landing is a kerplunk. Why? the sight picture is causing me to flare too high.

It isn't dangerous, just unflattering for the ego.

If I tried it in a large jet, there'd be no ego left to unflatter...

The only advantage I think a PP would have would be knowing what the main instruments are for, what the controls do, and how to work the radio, tune in 121.5, and dial in 7700 on the transponder.

Mike
 
MDorBust
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:52 am

I have spent quite a few summers in my Champ and have hundreds of hours in the clubs PA25, both free and towing. Just switching back and forth between those two relative lighweights (kiteweight for the champ  Smile ) takes a small bit of getting used to. Not just the differences in power, roll rate, rudder response etc etc... but the minor quirks that each plane has. They way they react differently to giveing or takeing power. The diffences in speed bleeding, or nose diveing with the breaks.

Never haveing flown anything with a jet in it, I'd imagie I would come to quite some grief since I'm used to doing prop approaches (who needs spool up time?)... oh and adding on 100k thousand pounds might just spoil my energy state expectations a little. I guess it would be like converting from driveing a Ford Escort to and 18 wheeler in heavy freeway traffic without any training. Sure... I know the basics.. and I might get lucky... but I'm not going to bet on it.

That.. and trying to stick the perfect three point landing in a 737 might not get to much approval  Smile
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
D5DBY
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:03 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
First of all, please look at the Helios accident. In that, it would appear a low time pilot, the flight attendant, tried to get control of the aircraft after both pilots were incapacitated. Things didn't work out too well.

off topic, but the latest information (from a source "near" the official investigation) claims that this FA dident gain entry to the flight deck in an early state of the flight.

the cabin crew couldent open the cockpit door during flight....it wasent before the AC ran out of fuel (1 engine stopped) that the AP disconnected and the lock in the door was automaticly opened. so the FA had very little time in an AC without fuel......

i dunno....but maybe someone with knowledge of this can confirm if the cockpit door opens when the AC(B733) runs out of fuel or 1 engine stops?
 
flymia
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting AdamWright (Reply 1):
Probably better chance than the FS pilot.. but you have to remeber.. when you're flying metal that big, knowing the Systems is 95% of the flying. Stick and Rudder is the easy part... knowing how to operate the systems and troubleshoot is the difficult part.



Well some FS pilots that fly PMDG 737 or 747 or some of those other very realistic add ons with 100 page manuels. I have an add on with a 300 page handbook. Anyway some of those FS pilots will know the systems alot better than a PPL and maybe Insturment pilot who has only have experiance in C172 or PA-28 and never even seen a bleed air switch. It all depends. The best thing would to have a FS PMDG fanantic that has his Insturment rating.  Smile Hopefully in a few years that will be me.  Wink
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
jush
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting BeechNut (Reply 14):
The only advantage I think a PP would have would be knowing what the main instruments are for, what the controls do, and how to work the radio, tune in 121.5, and dial in 7700 on the transponder.

A Sim pilot will know this as well. He just hasn't touched the real thing.

Regards
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
SuperD
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 13):
These obvious sidestepping answers fail to address the actual question of whether or not a PP can do it... and the answer is, yes. It is possible.

Forgive us for explaining our answers. I do not personally believe someone with a PPL that has only flown light single-engine aircraft could safely land a large airliner without injuring anyone. As you yourself seem to be admitting here, a large jet is much more difficult to control. In my experience, the difference is so large that landing a large jet would be next to impossible for a private pilot.

Quoting AdamWright (Reply 1):
when you're flying metal that big, knowing the Systems is 95% of the flying. Stick and Rudder is the easy part... knowing how to operate the systems and troubleshoot is the difficult part.



Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 17):
Well some FS pilots that fly PMDG 737 or 747 or some of those other very realistic add ons with 100 page manuels.

I actually don't think that in this situation systems knowledge would be that big of a help. Giving our hypothetical private pilot every advantage, in order to have any chance of hitting the vicinity of the runway they'd be coached by a company check airman over the radio. The expert on the radio would be telling them exactly what to do with the systems. Someone that had just happened to spend a lot of time in a FS with that particular aircraft would probably be able to find the switches faster than a random private pilot. The part that can't be simulated well is the actual action of landing. A private pilot would probably have a slight advantage during the landing. I still think that there would probably be injuries as a result of that landing.
 
buckfifty
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 13):
These obvious sidestepping answers fail to address the actual question of whether or not a PP can do it... and the answer is, yes. It is possible.

I suppose if the answer was black and white, yes, it is possible. Even your local high school janitor may be able to do it.

However, if you're talking about chance and percentage, I think the answer would be quite different.

If your local high school janitor was given a thousand chances (all mutually exclusive, as in no experience building, to simulate a real dual pilot collapse scenario) to land a 744 on a calm day into LAX, he may crash well over 900 times, overrun the runway a few times, or make it on the grass. That's if he or she can find the gear lever. But luck may have it that he or she will still be able to land the aircraft, if given enough chances. Much like the monkey can write a book theory.

A FS'er will probably have a better chance, but still probably crash it quite often. Percentage wise? Hard to say, as it has never been proven. A FS will never be able to simulate any aircraft to any sort of accurate degree. Finding where things are in the real flight deck is definitely not the same as looking on the screen and pressing F9. Not to mention trimming and flap deployment regimes. I know this from personal experience. Then on top of that, real world weather and the sensory overload of scanning makes it almost impossible to get it right the first time.

PPL or CPL holder from a small aircraft...that is another can of worms altogether. Knowing how to flare an aircraft, or how to deal with crosswinds, will already give that person a greater advantage to one who has only flown with Microsoft. However, things happen much quicker in a jet, which can overwhelm someone used to slower approach speeds, not to mention thrust changes are much more stubborn as compared to a prop driven aircraft. Again, find that gear lever first, then figure out exactly when to deploy the flaps, maybe there is a chance. Because landing without either will most likely end in tears, if your head is luckily enough still intact after the impact.

In any case, anything is possible. But there is a reason why training in the airline world is so rigorous. Failing once in one thousand isn't good enough. On a flightsim, that's a luxury you can afford.
 
DCrawley
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:10 am

I think that someone holding a PPL would have a better chance of landing it, but it would still be luck. From watching many sim sessions of people with PPL's on the 73G, even setting them up on a stabilized approach in good weather, many of them have crashed horribly. I've told them how to keep the magenta lines centered on the flight director and that's all they have to do until they flare.. but alas, crash and burn. Someone could take the aircraft to the runway, but to quote an F/A-18 fighter pilot in the Navy based on a carrier: "We don't land.. it's more of a controlled collision with the ground."

Quoting B744F (Reply 13):
Again, this is a "is it possible?" question, not a, "well I wouldn't want to be in the airplane" or "its so much harder to control than a small plane"

These obvious sidestepping answers fail to address the actual question of whether or not a PP can do it... and the answer is, yes. It is possible.

Everyone in here read the question and gave their opinion and answer to what they believe to be correct judging by their experience/facts. Since you must have missed reading the thread, here are the answers that were given:

Question:

Quoting TWAalltheway (Thread starter):
could a private pilot, with IFR licensing, or just IFR knowledge pull it off?

Answers:

Quoting AdamWright (Reply 1):
Probably better chance than the FS pilot



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 2):
Even with my CFII/MEI and 2 logbooks, I don't feel like I'd have any real chance at all of getting 'er down safely.



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
I would have to say no as well.



Quoting Saintsman (Reply 5):
Perhaps but it would be more luck that judgement.



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
I would like to put it this way.....A better chance.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
The bottom line, in my opinion, is he/she would have a much better chance than a F/S pilot



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
I believe that luck would still be the real pilot-in-command.



Quoting SuperD (Reply 19):
I still think that there would probably be injuries as a result of that landing.

I do not understand how you could say anyone was side-stepping answering the question, as they all appear to be quite straight forward to me. I must ask you why you keep responding to these threads with no actual factual or relevant information? You tend to respond with some bashing of what "pilots don't do and what they think they are" followed with your answer stated in a YES or NO with no backing except your word.

I would find your background in aviation quite interesting as I disagree with most of what you tend to say. I am not trying to argue with you because from my observations in previous threads it's a waste of time and I think this is the last time I will say anything. But please, inform me on WHY your views are this way as I think it would bring more to the table than telling people why they are wrong and that you're right. Thanks for your time.

-d
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
sccutler
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:50 pm

Well, as a PP-ASEL/IA, HP and Cplx endorsed (and nothing else), I was able to successfully hand-fly and land a 733 full-motion simulator, and I did it a number of times (including one with one engine out- that one surprised me, because I am not multi-rated, but it still flew once I stopped wagging the tail). Of course, I had a training captain giving me verbal reminders of key issues...

...main things I noticed were:

(1) sight picture- referenced above- very different, but less of an issue than I expected;
(2) carry power down to flare, and don't get behind because sink rate shows up a lot faster than the engines spool up;
(3) it flies just like a plane;
(4) a stabilized approach is a stabilized approach, no matter what it's in;
(5) keep all hands and feet away from the trim wheel when you toggle trim!

Could I have gotten the plane on the ground in the mythical "both pilots ate the fish" scenario? Given time, a nice big runway and a modicum of luck, I think so.

But what say, let's not try it, OK?

By the way, I was impressed with the guy who stole the Citation in Florida and flew it to Georgia; then found out: he is typed in Citations. So much for dumb luck; now, he has jut been demoted to plain ol' dumb.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
DCrawley
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:38 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 22):
(5) keep all hands and feet away from the trim wheel when you toggle trim!

I'd watch the knee's..

-d
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:52 pm

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 23):
Quoting SCCutler (Reply 22):
(5) keep all hands and feet away from the trim wheel when you toggle trim!

I'd watch the knee's..

Exactly.  Smile
Thats one way to tell a Capt from a F/O.The side of ther Knee thats limping.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Slcpilot
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:20 am

Ok, I'll play...

I had a chance to fly a slew of sims in the course of an evening about 7 years ago. As a private pilot with ~100hrs it was no problem to put the plane on the runway. We were unsupervised in the 727 sim and the hardest thing was getting it started, even with the help of a buddy who was in the process of getting taxi certified. I never crashed the sim, and never ran off the end of the runway.

I did "dent" the 777 though. Most of my recent time had been in a Cessna 140, and I was very conditioned to continue bringing the yoke back after landing (C-140's are somewhat prone to nosing over). Anyway, I did the same thing, and had three tail-strikes in the 777 sim on landing. I still remember the yellow cue on the CRT to indicate the tail strike.

Could a PP do it? I think the answer is "maybe"....

SLCPilot

I only have about 1200 hours in transport aircraft, but think my chances would be better now  

[Edited 2005-10-14 04:24:11]
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
AR1300
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:39 am

I feel like me and my PPL ratings are not worth a dime a dozen.  crazy 

Mike


P.S:here goes away another dream(and you know you are waiting for your chance, ''oh my God, the pilots are dead.What do we do???**screaming** don't worry, I'M A PILOT, I'LL BRING THIS BITCH DOWN)  Wink Big grin
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SuperD
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:51 pm

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 26):
P.S:here goes away another dream(and you know you are waiting for your chance, ''oh my God, the pilots are dead.What do we do???**screaming** don't worry, I'M A PILOT, I'LL BRING THIS BITCH DOWN)

Haha. I remember being a teenager with a fresh new PPL and somewhere around 100 hours thinking that when I was sitting in the back of an MD80 or 737. Back then I could see myself calmly handling the situation and being the hero of the day. Now if I were in that situation I'd be sweating my arse off, scared to death, wishing I were anywhere else in the world, and frantically trying to find anyone on board with any 737 or MD80 experience to take my place.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:59 pm

It would be hard, but I'd rather have a PPL try than a normal 'lay person' should the situation arise.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:17 pm

Quoting SuperD (Reply 27):
I remember being a teenager with a fresh new PPL and somewhere around 100 hours thinking that when I was sitting in the back of an MD80 or 737. Back then I could see myself calmly handling the situation and being the hero of the day. Now if I were in that situation I'd be sweating my arse off, scared to death, wishing I were anywhere else in the world, and frantically trying to find anyone on board with any 737 or MD80 experience to take my place

Why the change in thinking  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
AR1300
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RE: So If An FS Pilot Can't, Can A PP Do It?

Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:53 pm

Quoting SuperD (Reply 27):
Back then I could see myself calmly handling the situation and being the hero of the day

And then, when the CEO of AA asks, ''so sonny, what could we do for you??, I said , well a 777 will do, me thinks.Fine, with a 737 I'll be happy too.''
Oh, the dreams. Big grin

Mike
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