AT
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Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:41 am

A number of airlines have their windows "plugged" in regions of the aircraft where there is a galley, toilet or other non-seating areas, for example
in this picture, just forward of Door 2L.

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I wanted to ask, what are the benefits of doing so?
Does it affect the structure of the aircraft?
And are they permanent? Or can they be removed if the seating configuration changes and the windows are required?
 
B744F
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:43 am

Saves weight, mx costs, with the windows gone. No windows are required if a seat is put there
 
bigsmile
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:50 am

These aren't permanent. They are fitted the same way the windows are fitted. They are just cosmetic blanks. There is no more structural benefit from these blanks when compared to the windows. They are fitted usually behind galleys, toilets etc so you don't see the back of it from outside, galley's, toilets etc are not the most attractive things when you get behind them. Sometimes you do see some blanks fitted with aerials attached.

[Edited 2005-10-24 21:53:57]
 
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garpd
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting AT (Thread starter):
what are the benefits of doing so?

AFAIK, there is no real benefit. They just fill a gap where a window is not required, for example a toilet, a galley bulkhead etc.
Perhaps window plugs save a little weight, but I'd imagine it'd a negligable ammount in relation to the entire aircraft.

Quoting B744F (Reply 1):
Does it affect the structure of the aircraft?

Nope, think of them as windows made out a metal window. They are just as secure, perhaps even stronger.

Quoting AT (Thread starter):
And are they permanent

Most plugs can be removed if desired.
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Crosswind
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting AT (Thread starter):
Or can they be removed if the seating configuration changes and the windows are required?

It's a fairly quick and simple process to plug and unplug a window - in very simple terms the glass window panel is replaced with a sheet metal plug and vice versa.

My airline recently reconfigured 2 ex-Vietnam Airlines B767s. The first window aft of Door 2L & R was already plugged due to a toilet being located on each side - during reconfiguration stowages were installed aft of the toilets on both sides of the cabin so the second window on each side aft of Door 2L & R was also plugged.

Before and After;

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Photo © Darren Wilson


Regards
CROSSWIND
 
Tod
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:18 am

There are also locations that plugged because the main conditioned air ducting is routed there. For example, three locations on each side of a 747 forward of door three. IIRC, two on each side of 767 and one on each side of 737NG (old 737 using mulitple small ducts routed around the windows instead). For all practical purposes, these locations cannot be changed.

Tod
 
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garpd
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:22 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 5):
There are also locations that plugged because the main conditioned air ducting is routed there. For example, three locations on each side of a 747 forward of door three. IIRC, two on each side of 767 and one on each side of 737NG (old 737 using mulitple small ducts routed around the windows instead). For all practical purposes, these locations cannot be changed.

Tod

I don't thinks these locations feature "plugged" windows. Rather, no window cutting at all. Simply clean sheet metal fuselage.
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Tod
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:29 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 6):
I don't thinks these locations feature "plugged" windows. Rather, no window cutting at all. Simply clean sheet metal fuselage.

That's correct, good clarification. Thanks.

Tod
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:18 am

Take a look here: http://www.liteair.com/
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:23 pm



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Photo © Charles Falk


Normally Blanked Window Plugs are replaced like Windows.Why put a window where its not needed.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
jeffry747
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:14 pm

Let's not forget aircraft which have been converted from passenger to cargo configuration, which in some cases has the entire fuselage lined with window plugs.


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VC-10
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting GARPD (Reply 3):
Perhaps window plugs save a little weight, but I'd imagine it'd a negligable ammount in relation to the entire aircraft.

You have to look at the big picture, weight saved = fuel saved over the life of the a/c.

A company I once worked for did a calculation of how much extra fuel was burned in course of a year by an extra sugar bag.
 
lincoln
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:42 am

Forgive the layman for budging in here, but I beleive I read somewhere that window plugs require less MX than a real window. Is this correct?

Lincoln
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Aviation
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:49 am

I really dont think they are such a good idea.

Cheers,
Signed, Aaron Nicoli - Trans World Airlines Collector
 
474218
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:18 am

Quoting Aviation (Reply 13):
I really dont think they are such a good idea.

So I guess you think stretched acrylic is stronger than aluminum?
 
OzLAME
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:22 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 12):
Forgive the layman for budging in here, but I beleive I read somewhere that window plugs require less MX than a real window. Is this correct?

That is correct, which is why the eyebrow windows are disappearing from the cockpits of 737s.

Quoting Aviation (Reply 13):
I really dont think they are such a good idea.

Why not? I have been involved in converting small twin-engined a/c into freighters. We would often remove windows and install metal blanks. The metal can still be checked from the inside and there is no longer any need to get out the prism and check the window for cracks, or to polish out scratches. There is a huge difference in maintenance requirements; there are guys working at QANTAS who do nothing but change windows.
Monty Python's Flying Circus has nothing to do with aviation, except perhaps for Management personnel.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:47 pm

Quoting OzLAME (Reply 15):
That is correct, which is why the eyebrow windows are disappearing from the cockpits of 737s.

Also it contributes to a more silent cockpit too.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Whiskeyflyer
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:15 am

also metal plugs make washing and painting easier
you do not need to waste time ensuring no abrasive cleaners/stripper gets on the windows (masking windows prior to stripping/painting consummes a lot of manhours)

The MM specifies limits to scratches, nicks, abrasions (those little scratches) etc that a window may have (varies by aircraft type), if it exceeds limits, you replace the window (and hope the polishing shop can restore the windows within limits) Dusty climes and pollution result in abrasing of windows so best to put the metal in and keep your windows in stock for pax (boxes don't admire the view and they don't complain........... brings back happy memories of when I was a freight dog and left oil all over the ramp in our thrusty DC8-55F)
 
SkydrolBoy
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):

Also it contributes to a more silent cockpit too.
regds
MEL

It's the Vortex Generators that they install infront of the windshield that makes for a quieter cockpit, not the removal of the windows. You can see them in the picture below just behind the radome.


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727EMflyer
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:44 am

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 11):
A company I once worked for did a calculation of how much extra fuel was burned in course of a year by an extra sugar bag.

So what was the verdict? I trust we're not talking a tsp sized packet for coffee...
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pros And Cons Of "Plugged" Windows

Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:58 pm



Quoting SkydrolBoy (Reply 18):
It's the Vortex Generators that they install infront of the windshield that makes for a quieter cockpit, not the removal of the windows. You can see them in the picture below just behind the radome.

Agreed The VG do contribute to noise reduction,But I've heard that the Elimination of the Eyebrow Windows too add to the Silence.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/112446/

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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