siromega
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Tankering Fuel

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:19 pm

So I was watching my local govt access channel, and they were televising a session of a local "blue ribbon" committee designed to figure out how to get more JetA into LAS. They went over the "how does fuel travel from El Paso to LAS..." and one of the more interesting things they covered is that airlines like NW and HP (when they were still HP) tankered fuel out when extra weight was available when they were going to other destinations, mostly California cities. It turns out that I guess the cost of fuel in LAS is so much cheaper in terms of most parts of California (after you factor in the tax - in NV its 3 cents/gal and in CA its a percentage). I thought this was interesting and would share it with all you folks (though many of you pilots out there know this already). So yea, tankering out fuel is putting a strain on the resources available in LAS - I guess the pipeline that feeds LAS can provide like 30,000 gal/day and if people keep tankering out fuel that 30,000 gal/day doesnt go as far as one would expect.

If anyone else has some insight, please post it, as I tuned into it near the end.. thanks!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:29 pm

Tankering comes in two flavors, economic and operational.

Economic is pretty self-explanatory; our computers know the fuel prices, the trip distance and resultant burn penalty for carrying the extra weight of tankered fuel, and it tells us how much (or even if) to tanker. I had a few flights last week that were saving $1,000-$1,550 on EACH flight, and for the whole shift, the amount saved was $6,100.....

Operational tankering has nothing to saving money--it's about moving fuel from where you have it to places where you don't or are trying to conserve or build up supplies. That's the case in LAS, as supplies need to be built up due to a scheduled outage for pipeline repair in November.
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CX Flyboy
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:49 pm

We tanker fuel fairly often around Asia, although for every tonne that you tanker, you use a good part of it through additional fuel burn because of the heavier aircraft weights. With the current fuel prices, often it makes no sense to tanker fuel anymore. However thera are still places we do it, so there must be places where the fuel prices are much higher.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:23 pm

Out here.Tankering is regularily carried out on some sectors due to the Differences in prices of ATF statewise.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
727EMflyer
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:00 pm

Since that was overheard out of a govt committee, I wonder if any local governments in cheap fuel areas get in the tax revenue business by lowering taxes enough to make it worthwile to the airlines to "fill 'er up?" Lowering a tax by X percent could convince a liner to take on enough fuel to bring X percent back plus a handsome bonus amount: What a boon to the local governments! Any insight OPNLguy?
Oh, I think I should write the hawaii state legislature. They are in the gas price cap business right nw... they could expand to JetA price capping, force sales below cost (the il companies are ripping off the public regardless of the caps...) then add on a flat tax to bring prices back up to industry standards in some hairbrained market that is totally unrelated to ours! (MEL, what does jetgas go for out there?)
(Sorry for the rant in tech_ops where it doesn't belong. If you know of our gas cap please just chuckle at it!)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:02 pm

Quoting 727EMflyer (Reply 4):

ATF at BOM was Rs 23/litre when last checked.
BTW Petrol is almost Rs50/litre,Thats my bigger worry  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:11 pm

Quoting 727EMflyer (Reply 4):
Any insight OPNLguy?

Sorry, I don't get into the finance aspect--I just haul the stuff when it's economically advantageous, or we have supply issues.....
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2H4
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:19 pm




Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 2):
although for every tonne that you tanker, you use a good part of it through additional fuel burn because of the heavier aircraft weights.



Approximately what kind of ratio do you use? In other words, for every 1000 lbs of fuel tankered on a given route, how many pounds extra would you take on to carry that 1000 lbs to the destination?




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
pilotpip
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:54 pm

We get a lot of customers taking extra fuel at our FBO because we're so much lower than average in terms of price. I've heard that for a King Air expect to burn 100-200 pounds per extra thousand on board. For the DC-9 I've heard it's along the lines of 1000 pounds extra burned to tanker 10,000 pounds.
DMI
 
Okie
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 8):
I've heard that for a King Air expect to burn 100-200 pounds per extra thousand on board.

Depends on length of flight, headwinds etc. I will use 1,000 extra pounds or roughly 150 gallons with a 20% penalty for tankerage.
I will use your numbers at $3.00 per gallon for that flight with a 20% penalty to see what the difference would be at the next refueling point.
150 x 3.00 = $450.00
less 20%
120 x 3.75 = $450.00
So it would take a $0.75 per gallon higher price at the next refueling point to tanker that 1,000 pounds of fuel to have a net of 800lbs of fuel with a 20% penalty figured in on that particular flight.

I have no clue how much price changes from one airport to the other but that seems significant price swing nor do I have any idea what the current price of Jet A is at this time. I just took the liberty of expanding on you numbers to get a rough idea.

Okie
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:36 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 7):
Approximately what kind of ratio do you use? In other words, for every 1000 lbs of fuel tankered on a given route, how many pounds extra would you take on to carry that 1000 lbs to the destination?

Depends upon the stage length. I've seen the penalty range from 2.5% up to 7% or 8%.
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jetstar
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:40 am

Quoting SirOmega (Thread starter):
I guess the pipeline that feeds LAS can provide like 30,000 gal/day and if people keep tankering out fuel that 30,000 gal/day doesnt go as far as one would expect.

The jet fuel pipeline to LAS cannot be capable of delivering only 30,000 gallons a day. LAS is a very busy airport with hundreds of airline flights a day and if an airliner took on 3000 gallons, which is about one hours flight time on some airplanes, LAS can fuel only 10 airplanes a day.

I think it is more like 300,000 gallons a day or maybe 30,000 gallons an hour.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:45 pm

The large tanker trucks you see on the highway can carry over 8000 gallons of fuel to put this into perspective. I'm sure Jetstar is correct because I can't see a pipeline carrying 4 truckloads of fuel.
DMI
 
siromega
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 11):
The jet fuel pipeline to LAS cannot be capable of delivering only 30,000 gallons a day. LAS is a very busy airport with hundreds of airline flights a day and if an airliner took on 3000 gallons, which is about one hours flight time on some airplanes, LAS can fuel only 10 airplanes a day.

I think it is more like 300,000 gallons a day or maybe 30,000 gallons an hour.

I watched the program again (it got replayed), its 30,000 barrels of JetA/day.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:18 am

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 13):
I watched the program again (it got replayed), its 30,000 barrels of JetA/day.

Assuming a barrel is the same 42 gallons (as it is crude oil), that'd be 1,260,000 gallons... Hmm.....

[Edited 2005-10-29 20:19:07]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:19 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 10):
Depends upon the stage length. I've seen the penalty range from 2.5% up to 7% or 8%.

1. 100 people paying to fly this flight—$4,500.
2. Fueling the plane roundtrip—$3,100.
2. Tankering fuel to save $600 over buying it from the more expensive city—priceless.
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airfoilsguy
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:18 am

What is meant by tankering? Do you actually off load it latter, or is just used on the same aircraft? Also, if LAS is having a problem with fuel shortages, why don't they just raise the fuel price? You know, supply and demand.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 16):
What is meant by tankering?

The aircraft is fueled with more than that is required for the trip—payload permitting—in order to save money, or put less strain on the fuel reserves at the airport.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 16):
Do you actually off load it latter, or is just used on the same aircraft?

It's kept on the aircraft for the above reason.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 16):
Also, if LAS is having a problem with fuel shortages, why don't they just raise the fuel price?

The airlines are in contracts with the fuel providers. The fuel providers can't just change it on a moment's notice like a gas station used for cars.
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OPNLguy
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 16):
Also, if LAS is having a problem with fuel shortages, why don't they just raise the fuel price? You know, supply and demand.

Prices are high enough already, thank you...  Wink

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the situation driving the tankering into LAS right now is an upcoming supply issue, and one in a context that may not be 100% clear to you.

Airports have tank farms where fuel is stored. They usually keep a 2-3 day supply on-hand, in storage. These tank farms are supplied by either tanker trucks, or by pipelines. In the case of LAS, their pipeline needs some maintenance work, and it will be shutdown for a few days, and therefore unable to provide fuel to the tank farm. If no other arrangements were made, the airport (the whole shebang) would run out of fuel in 2-3 days, which nobody wants to see happen (i.e. LOTS of cancelled flights, etc.).

Tanker trucks delivering to the fuel farm will replace some of the pipeline's capacity, but there's no way trucks dropping 8,000-9,000 gallons at a time can do it all. The main reason the airlines are tankering now (even when it's not economically feasible, based on fuel prices alone) is that the more fuel they can arrive in LAS with, the less they have to pull out of the ground in LAS, which helps build up capacity at the tank farm. If they can work up the tank farm from a 2-3 day supply to a 5-6 day supply, then having the pipeline shutdown for 4 days is workable.
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sunking737
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:35 pm

OPNLguy thanks for the incite to what goes on from on operations stand point.
I always find it interesting to find out how the other guy does his job.
Just an MSPAVGEEK
 
siromega
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:16 am

One of the other things mentioned is that LAS has a 9 day supply capacity, they just cant manage to save that much up.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:07 pm

BTW whats the price of ATF at your Airports currently.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:13 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 7):


Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 2):
although for every tonne that you tanker, you use a good part of it through additional fuel burn because of the heavier aircraft weights.

Approximately what kind of ratio do you use? In other words, for every 1000 lbs of fuel tankered on a given route, how many pounds extra would you take on to carry that 1000 lbs to the destination?
2H4

The figure varies depending on each flight. We are given a figure to calculate on the front of the flight plan. I just did a 2hr 15min flight where every extra tonne of weight equalled about 68kgs. So if the ZFW increased, then we multiplied the number of tonnes by 68kgs and we increase the fuel burn figures by the result. If we wish to carry more fuel as a result, then it is a different figure, as the act of loading more fuel increases the TOW which then increases the fuel burn!
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Tankering Fuel

Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:34 pm

According to a recent publication by flight ops here it takes 4 % of the extra fuel to carry it. If you land with 15,000# of extra fuel after a 2.5 hr. flight you burned 1500#. There are several flights that tanker and the savings is anywhere between $150-$1500 per flight times hundreds of flights.

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