Dash 80
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"Buying An Engine"

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:05 am

Hey guys,

Where I work, we strive really hard to maintain a FOD free environment for aircraft on our aprons, taxiways, and runways. Obviously safety is our #1 priority, but we try to have a delicate mix of seriousness and levity to make the place enjoyable to work at.

Anyway, we have a saying here, which I'm sure is used at other airports when it comes to FOD, that we call, "buying an engine." As an example, if a large piece of FOD was ingested into the engine of an airliner causing substantial damage requiring a complete replacement of the engine, we would call that, "buying an engine." Something we obviously would not like to do. Or in a sample statement, "Good thing I found this chunk of concrete before that 737 taxied by, or I would be buying an engine."

After using this statement for several years, I was wondering, what is the cost of some of today's modern high bypass turbofans? Now I understand there is a lot more to this than going down to the corner Engine-MART and grabbing one off the shelf. Things such as model sub-types, customer preferences, and so-forth affect the cost from the manufacturer. But if an airline was to "buy an engine" (not including pylon and nacelle), how much would that run for various engines on the market today?

I figure there are plenty of mechanics on here who have done hundreds of engine swaps over the years and I was just wondering.

Thanks in advance,

Steve
...where the rubber hits the runway...
 
dl757md
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:41 am

I wish I could answer your question but at Delta we don't "buy an engine" we send them to the shop and they get overhauled. You'd be surprised at what a good overhaul shop is capable of repairing at a fraction of the cost of a new one. I don't know how accurate it is but I've heard the average cost to overhaul a CF6 or PW4000 series is in the neighborhood of $3,000,000. I'm guessing that a new one costs around $10,000,000.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
Dash 80
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:36 am

Thanks, man. $3M for an overhaul,  spit . I figured most could be repaired and the average FOD ingestion does not require a complete replacement, but we still like to use that saying instead of "oh my god, that could have been bad."

Steve
...where the rubber hits the runway...
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:28 pm

We normally keep Spares Overhauled Engines at the Base Stn in case of any FOD related Replacement required.Also We recycle the Engines among themselves to cater to their hrs/cycles run & next MI due.
So when an Engine is dropped its sent for Overhaul.
I think $10,000,000 seems a realistic price though it depends on type.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
kgfive
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:16 pm

Here at PIK ( G.E. Caledonian Aircraft Engines ) we overhaul and repair engines for many airlines, CF6-50, -6, -80. Depending on customers requirements a full overhaul can run into $millions ( exact $ supplied later ) Normal wear and tear is usually repaired than replaced. If components are outwith repairable engine manual limits or are Time Limited Parts then they are replaced for NEW parts, but repair is preferred option. As for FOD we see many engines with all sorts of damage, from Fan Blade damage that has gone no further to engines where FOD has been ingested right through to the Compressors and wiped out whole sections of HPC or HPT or LPT and when the strip mechanics disassemble the module it's like opening up a box of components upside down as everything falls out. What keeps amazing me is how the hell some of them can still fly with so much damage.

OH and FOD can happen in the repair shop too Sad but I'll need to keep that private  Wink

If any of you have seen videos of OEM's testing new engines you will see the damage that's done to engines to see the results of various kinds of damage. Blasting off Fan Blades and testing the results to shooting frozen chickens straight into the Fan all with impressive results and all still perform well.

All in all it's an expensive business.
fill the skies
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting Kgfive (Reply 4):
when the strip mechanics disassemble the module it's like opening up a box of components upside down as everything falls out.

What happens if an Engine involved in an Incident/Accident arrives at the Overhaul Shop.Is there a different procedure of Dismantling,like Slower & Photography or are there NTSB/Regulatory body personnel around.
Or is it treated like any other Engine & a strip report is made.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
kgfive
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:47 am

If we get an engine in which is involved in an Incident the customer ( airline ) usually send their own engineers to observe the disassembly and photos are taken also,and both our engineers and theirs monitor the strip process and whatever they find. On occasion when it's very serious the area is quarantined for FAA/CAA regulatory personnel to inspect engine. Photos are taken as a norm when an engine is received so we know what to put back on ( exterior hardware ) when it's dispatched back to airline...sounds funny but sometimes "bits" are missed and airlines claim to have had hardware on it when sending it in but it's not...so photos are for our benefit too.

Engine came in a year or so back minus it's gearbox, think aircraft skidded and engine came into contact with ground. The airline created havoc as we were billing them for a return to service engine WITH new gearbox but they did not believe us when told of missing component...photos of engine on arrival resolved the matter  Smile
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HAWK21M
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting Kgfive (Reply 6):
so photos are for our benefit too.

Ever thought of a Video recording,considering the Number of Photos needed,or was Resolution a concern.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
efohdee
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:58 am

I know a few prices of turboshaft engines offhand.
Your basic Allison 250 engine low time is around $250,000. A zero time T55-GA-714 is a little over a cool mil. Most of the T62 APU series are around $100,000. Rough ballpark from what I can remember.
 
kgfive
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:54 pm

On average a full overhaul is in region of $1.5 million but it also depends on customer contracts which is way to difficult to go into.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
Ever thought of a Video recording,considering the Number of Photos needed,or was Resolution a concern.

Hard enough to get our servers to store digital photos never mind video but I am sure the powers to be will be looking into video for future reference.

Oh and a foot note..as you can tell by timing of my post I am at work Sad ( well in UK you can tell ) first night of the week and I am hating my weeks night shift already....anybody actually like working nights?????
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lightsaber
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:47 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 1):
I don't know how accurate it is but I've heard the average cost to overhaul a CF6 or PW4000 series is in the neighborhood of $3,000,000. I'm guessing that a new one costs around $10,000,000.

List prices are typically $10,000,000 for a large engine (CF6, PW4062). Sales prices actually are close to the cost of an overhaul! Sometimes a little more. A GE90-115 goes for more than any other engine. I've been hearing $6,500,000 in quantity.

Quoting Kgfive (Reply 9):
On average a full overhaul is in region of $1.5 million but it also depends on customer contracts which is way to difficult to go into.

What size of engine? $1.5 million sounds like a CFM-56/V2500. However, I've been told the rates have dropped in the last two years so I'm asking what the current tab is.

Quoting Kgfive (Reply 9):
.anybody actually like working nights?????

Hate it. I'm working the graveyard. ugh.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:22 pm

Quoting Kgfive (Reply 9):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
Ever thought of a Video recording,considering the Number of Photos needed,or was Resolution a concern.

Hard enough to get our servers to store digital photos never mind video but I am sure the powers to be will be looking into video for future reference

Any time frame to preserve the Pics.

Quoting Kgfive (Reply 9):
anybody actually like working nights

I work 5nights/Week 2300hrs to 0800hrs/or when the Last Aircraft departs which ever is Later.
It gets tougher during Mid Dec to Feb as Del gets fogged up & All Aircrafts are routed/stuck at BOM.Its my unofficial Annual Weight reduction programme  Smile

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:42 pm

Anybody know how much it might cost to buy a jet engine from an aircraft scrapyard ? Something like a JT8D from a retired NW DC-9 that isnt going to be used again ?
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
greasespot
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:27 am

You cannot buy engines for the most part from a scrapper. Unless it is already broken down.( mind you everything does have a price) To many unsavory people out ther who would create a new history for the engine parts and sell them especially the high cost items like disks. The liability is way to high especially if an airplane crashes. Everyone who ever touched the engine would get sued. When we scrap engines we have to make sure that our rep is onsite for destruction or we exchange them with the OH facility for a credit on our next O/H / repair. They take out what can be re-used and scrap the rest.

Oh yeah an overhaul on a JT8D-Standard costs upwards of 300 000 and up depending on what disks need replacing.

For a PW120 it is 285 000 and up depending on what LCF's need replacing.

[Edited 2005-11-05 00:29:24]
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:51 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 13):
When we scrap engines we have to make sure that our rep is onsite for destruction or we exchange them with the OH facility for a credit on our next O/H / repair

Where does the Disposed/Unuseful Spares go.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:17 pm

I didn't dismantle engines, but at LH U/S aircraft parts destined to be scrapped were brought to the ground equipment shop to be cut to pieces with a cutting torch to prevent them reappearing on the spare parts market.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
kgfive
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:08 pm

Lots of Airlines actually lease their engines from leasing company's. G.E. will sell you engines for your aircraft or lease them to you and depending on how you operate your engines is also dependent on the overhaul costs. Airlines now can pay their overhaul costs by the number of hours the engine is in flying service ( the contracts get very complicated ) so the better is is overhauled the longer if flies the more the overhaul facility gets paid...thats the simple formula so $1.5 million is about the lower end cost for CF6-6.

Scrap parts are normally cut up on site, as MD11 said, to prevent them reappearing on the black market and believe me some parts do especially smaller items like bolts and brackets but also some LLP ( Life limited Parts ) can make their way to uncontrolled sources. Some single item parts are returned to customers at their request when we deem them to be out with repair limits and they either hold them in storage until new repairs come out ( usually with high cost items ) or they scrap them off. With all repair items correct documentation and engine history is paramount and has to be up to scratch.

kg
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HAWK21M
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
at LH U/S aircraft parts destined to be scrapped were brought to the ground equipment shop to be cut to pieces with a cutting torch to prevent them reappearing on the spare parts market



Quoting Kgfive (Reply 16):
With all repair items correct documentation and engine history is paramount and has to be up to scratch.

Is a record maintained of the Scrapping.If so how long are the Documents preserved for.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
greasespot
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:57 am

Any parts that are suitable for re-use will be sold with full traceability records. Any that is not has to be cut up or destroyed and a certificate attesting to this is signed and sent to us.

When we scrap an engine we keep the scrap cert from the scrapper and the log book. The rest of the records are tossed. That way if someone contacts us for history of a part that we scrapped (never happened yet) no one can hand it over inadvertantly. When an engine is scrapped it is obvious in the records.


How ever laws in other coutries may be different than here and may require records kept.
GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:19 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 18):
When we scrap an engine we keep the scrap cert from the scrapper and the log book.



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 18):
When an engine is scrapped it is obvious in the records.

How long are the Records required to be kept as per law.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
greasespot
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:26 am

I believe it is 2 years but I may be wrong. We scrapped our first engines 1.5 years ago.  Smile...

We will robabbly keep the logs and certs. until something happens to them or someone comes along years from now and asks "Why are we still holding onto these"  Smile..

Seems to be the normal way of working here...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
2H4
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RE: "Buying An Engine"

Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:24 am




Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
Where does the Disposed/Unuseful Spares go.











http://www.kaimanaaviation.com/AV3-ShockleyJetTruck(2)Small.jpg












As you can clearly see, here in the US, we have a less-than-optimum testosterone to intelligence ratio. This does, however, provide a market for disposed and/or unuseful spare engines.




2H4


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