higney85
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Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:56 am

I personally love the 757 with the winglets, why doesn't the 777 and 767 have them? They obviously help with fuel burn and look great. A 777 would be absolutely amazing with a pair. I heard rumors in the past about the entire boeing fleet getting them but it seems that the 73's and 75's have been the only aftermarket winglet customers....
 
ACYWG
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:04 pm

Quoting Higney85 (Thread starter):
why doesn't the 777 and 767 have them? They obviously help with fuel burn and look great. A 777 would be absolutely amazing with a pair.

The 767-400 series and also the later 777 models (773ER, 772LR) all have raked wingtips, which essentially offer the same advantage.
 
Slarty
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:22 pm

But size matters ... Short-haulers are different than the long-haulers ...
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting Higney85 (Thread starter):
it seems that the 73's and 75's have been the only aftermarket winglet customers....

There are a few 727s equipped with the aftermarket winglets. Trump and the FL company that does parabolic zero-g flights come to mind. Delta had one or two at one point and I was lucky enough to ride one.

Personally, I think 707 would look great with them. If the USAF decides to upgrade the KC-135 fleet it might even make sense to do.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting Higney85 (Thread starter):
I personally love the 757 with the winglets, why doesn't the 777 and 767 have them?

Aviation Partners has suggested winglets may be possible for both the 767 and 777, but as of yet, no customer has stepped forward.

Quoting Higney85 (Thread starter):
I heard rumors in the past about the entire boeing fleet getting them but it seems that the 73's and 75's have been the only aftermarket winglet customers....

The only "in-house" winglet designed by Boeing is the 747-400 winglet and the 767-4, 777LR wingtip.

The 737NG and 757 winglets are all provided by Aviation Partners. It is possible that a customer request for AVPB Winglets be fitted during production of a 737NG by Boeing, but they are still Aviation Partners winglets.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:36 pm

Who will make the 787-3's blended winglets, or the raked winglets of the 787-8 and 787-9?
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
md90fan
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:44 pm

Didnt AC express interest in retrofitting their 76S fleet with winglets?
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
aircanl1011
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:37 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 6):
didn't AC express interest in retrofitting their 76S fleet with winglets?

Yes they did and are planning to add them while they wait for their new Boeing orders.
CYMRU AM BYTH / WALES FOREVER
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:55 pm

 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:09 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):

Aviation Partners has suggested winglets may be possible for both the 767 and 777, but as of yet, no customer has stepped forward.

It is because they look ugly  Wink (and yes that is my opinion and I am ready to be personally attacked for my views because that is what people like to do around here recently.)  Yeah sure
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jedward
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:32 pm

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 8):
777 winglets are under development at APB. See:
http://www.bizjournals.com/industrie....html

AeroWeanie, would you be kind enough to post another link as the one provided is not functional.

Thanks!  Smile
As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich. --S.C.
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:11 pm

Quoting JEdward (Reply 10):
AeroWeanie, would you be kind enough to post another link as the one provided is not functional.

Sorry - I had put that in a thread several months ago, so I just repeated it. Here is a newer link:
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...+blended+winglet+applications.html

The article mentions spiroids, so here is a picture of spiroids on a 747:
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 3):
Personally, I think 707 would look great with them. If the USAF decides to upgrade the KC-135 fleet it might even make sense to do.

You will never see them on the B-707. But the USAF and NASA did flight test winglets on a KC-135A back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. That was the testing that qualified winglets as a fuel saver. USAF never bought them because winglets reduce the cross wind componets for TO and landings.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 5):
Who will make the 787-3's blended winglets, or the raked winglets of the 787-8 and 787-9?

Boeing.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 9):
It is because they look ugly (and yes that is my opinion and I am ready to be personally attacked for my views because that is what people like to do around here recently.)

As I said, the major drawback to winglets is the reduced cross wind componets. Raked wingtips are much more efficent, and don't reduce cross winds, that is why you won't see winglets on the B-747-ADV.
 
Glareskin
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:56 am

Please no blended winglets on the 777 or 767. They've already spoiled the 737 and 757 with that. There must be other ways to save fuel...  Wink
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:25 am

What ever happened to the 747 Classic application? I saw a picture a while back in a copy of Airliners of APB flight testing the blended winglets on a 742F. I have heard nothing of this since... Is there an update?

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
ACYWG
Posts: 259
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:10 am

Quoting AIRCANL1011 (Reply 7):
Quoting MD90fan (Reply 6):
didn't AC express interest in retrofitting their 76S fleet with winglets?

Yes they did and are planning to add them while they wait for their new Boeing orders.

I remember reading about that. If I remember the figures correctly, the winglets are supposed to be on the order of 11 ft tall?
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:38 am

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 14):
What ever happened to the 747 Classic application? I saw a picture a while back in a copy of Airliners of APB flight testing the blended winglets on a 742F. I have heard nothing of this since... Is there an update?

The program is on hold.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
You will never see them on the B-707. But the USAF and NASA did flight test winglets on a KC-135A back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. That was the testing that qualified winglets as a fuel saver. USAF never bought them because winglets reduce the cross wind componets for TO and landings.

Great info, thanks! Any chance that they could be retrofitted with raked tips or would this require a new wing design(obviously not practical if this is the case)?
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
D L X
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:10 am

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 9):
It is because they look ugly

THANK YOU! I'm always amazed by the fact that around here people drool over winglets. I mean, they're only winglets!! They're not there to make the plane look better (and in my opinion, on most planes, they make them look worse, a la 320 series), they're there to make them operate better, but only under certain conditions.

Winglets are good for making old wing designs more fuel efficient on long haul flights. But the reason the 777 never had winglets is because if you design the wing from scratch, today's technology allows engineers to make a wing that doesn't have the compromise requiring winglets.

The 737NGs can have the winglets because their wing was designed for short-haul flights. The winglets make them work better for long haul flights.
 
D L X
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:15 am

And another thing...

spiroid winglets look awful.

http://www.aviationpartners.com/otherprograms/concepts.html#
 
lexer
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:21 pm

RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 9):
It is because they look ugly

Yep, they sure are! What I like especially about a 777 is its beautiful, clean wings, pointing slightly upwards. Winglets would ruin that.
 
aeroweanie
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:33 pm

RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:45 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
Winglets are good for making old wing designs more fuel efficient on long haul flights. But the reason the 777 never had winglets is because if you design the wing from scratch, today's technology allows engineers to make a wing that doesn't have the compromise requiring winglets.

Not true. As I've said before, any wing benefits from a span extension. A winglet is just a non-planar span extension.
 
D L X
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:14 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 21):
any wing benefits from a span extension.

Sure, you can expand the wing all the way out to 5 miles on a side, and it will provide more lift than a shorter wing. However, that "wing benefit" obviously wouldn't turn into a "plane benefit."

What I'm saying is that the 777 wing was right-sized and righ-shaped for the mission it performs. Current technology made that possible.

Furthermore, non-planar extensions, if my understanding of them is correct, are not "better" than planar extensions that are designed right into the wing from the start.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:19 am

Quoting Lexer (Reply 20):
Yep, they sure are! What I like especially about a 777 is its beautiful, clean wings, pointing slightly upwards. Winglets would ruin that.

If a 4-5% improvement in fuel burn holds true for 777 as it has with 757 then I'm sure many 777-200ER operators would be salivating over it. That amount of improvement in fuel consumption means you can carry an extra 5t of payload or reduce total TOW requirement further reducing fuel burned on the longest routes. At a million or so USD per ship it looks like a bargain compared to springing for an all new 777-200LR to bump up your ACL. Aesthetics aside, the bottom line is the bottom line. IMO if the product is developed, operators will be lined up to get the mod done.



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
Sure, you can expand the wing all the way out to 5 miles on a side, and it will provide more lift than a shorter wing.

Lift = weight in cruise, so you don't need "more lift". Increasing wing area does reduce wing loading in cruise, which is not necessarily good. However, the greater wingspan reduces induced drag, as induced drag equals (to first approximation):

CDi = CL^2 / Pi / AR /e

Which dimensionally is:

Di = L^2 / q / b^2 / Pi / e

See that b^2 in the denominator? That is the wingspan squared (L is lift, q is dynamic pressure, Pi is 3.1415... and e is the Oswald Efficiency Factor). Adding span has a squared effect in reducing induced drag.

The span of the 777-200 was mostly limited by gate and taxiway considerations. The original version had folding tips to get around these problems. Airport changes and operating limits ended up solving these problems and the folding tips were never built. Winglets are a way of adding span, while avoiding these problems in most cases.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:00 am

Quoting Slarty (Reply 2):
But size matters

No, its how you use it that counts  Wink


Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
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ZSOFN
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:10 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
The 737NG and 757 winglets are all provided by Aviation Partners. It is possible that a customer request for AVPB Winglets be fitted during production of a 737NG by Boeing, but they are still Aviation Partners winglets.

I heard somewhere that the production fitted winglets by Boeing were a couple of feet taller than those provided by APB on a retrofit - can anyone qualify this?
 
aeroweanie
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:33 pm

RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting ZSOFN (Reply 26):
I heard somewhere that the production fitted winglets by Boeing were a couple of feet taller than those provided by APB on a retrofit - can anyone qualify this?

They are identical.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 24):
Adding span has a squared effect in reducing induced drag.

Right. people either don't understand or tend to forget that the 4 forces on a plane are interrelated.

Thus because the four major forces on a plane are drag, lift, weight, and thrust, altering one EFFECTIVELY alters the others.

If you reduce drag, you can either reduce thrust to generate the same lift, or reduce design lift to maintain the same thrust levels.

Or, you could use the same thrust and the same lift and instead increase WEIGHT in the form of added payload for the same range.

So, effectively, adding span, even by turning the wingtips up, increases lift for the same level of thrust, which is why people say they 'add lift.' Of course, they also add weight, both of their own accord and the reinforcing needed in the wing to hold them.

Also, by reducing thrust requirements in cruise, they reduce fuel burn. By reducing thrust requirements in takeoff, they reduce NOISE, or they allow for better climb performance with the same thrust as before. By reducing thrust requirements on approach, they allow for slower approach speeds.

Which is why winglets can benefit most flights, not just longer range flights. Range is only one factor in the benefit package. All else being equal, if nothing else, winglets would allow the engines to be taxed less during takeoff, increasing their life. And that would be true for any length flight.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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Dalavia
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:30 am

One question comes to mind having read all the posts in this thread:

Could winglets, or differently designed raked wingtips, make enough difference to enable the 777-200LR to fly SYD-LHR non-stop?
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:26 am

Ikramerica:

My problem with the concept of "adding lift" is that lift comes about as a result of something, instead of being something I alter directly.

I can add drag by hanging more stuff in the breeze. I can add thrust by pushing the throttles forward. I can add weight by adding more payload. But how much lift is produced is the result of the weight I am flying at (if in unaccelerated flight). If I reduce thrust, or increase drag, the aircraft will change angle of attack such that lift still equals weight. Only if the load factor is not 1.0 will lift not equal weight. Then weight times load factor equals lift.
 
EI747SYDNEY
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:47 pm

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 16):
The program is on hold

Why was That??

Rob wave 
''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
 
777
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:50 pm

Last week I was in GSO (North Carolina) were there is a big Aviation Engineering & Maintenance company and I saw at least two 757 (from Continental and Icelandair) that were there for a Winglets retrofit activity.
I asked some pilots and they said to me that the 757 has a lower wing efficiency with respect to other aicrafts (for instance the 777), so that the winglet implementation on this aircraft it's particularly effective.

Is it true?

Cheers  wave 
 
aeroweanie
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Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:33 pm

RE: Winglets On A 777?

Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:09 am

Quoting 777 (Reply 32):
I asked some pilots and they said to me that the 757 has a lower wing efficiency with respect to other aicrafts (for instance the 777), so that the winglet implementation on this aircraft it's particularly effective.

The 757 actually has a very good wing. As a measure of how good its wing is, it has the same Mmo as the 767 (.86), but it has less wing sweep (25 deg vs. 31.5 deg). What makes the winglets so effective is that they are very well designed.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:15 pm

Read that the B763-ER got new aftermarket winglet from a company on Isle of Wright.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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TupolevTu154
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:59 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 34):
Read that the B763-ER got new aftermarket winglet from a company on Isle of Wright.

Way to go to bump a thread  Wink
 
Max Q
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:14 am

Well the 777 can use all the help it can get in the less boring looking department so I cannot see how winglets would hurt.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:40 am



Quoting TupolevTu154 (Reply 35):
Way to go to bump a thread

Was thinking the same, that too with a B767 statement  wink 

Quoting Max Q (Reply 36):
Well the 777 can use all the help it can get in the less boring looking department so I cannot see how winglets would hurt

If the Winglets are going to be added for looks,don't forget to cater to the added weight & extra fuel consumption to carry that weight.  Smile

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
AA388
Posts: 203
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RE: Winglets On A 777?

Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:30 pm

777 with winglets would look sick and while we're at it lets make the whale jet look better by slapping 22 ft winglets on it.


-max
Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300,600, 717, 737-3,5,7,8,9, 747-400, 757-2, 767-300, 777-200

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