yow
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Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:06 am

I have a question for all the airline pilots, f/a's and crew schedulers (and anyone else that knows) on a.net. What is the FAA-mandated minimum rest period for flight crews? Is it 8 hours? Does this differ from Canadian regulations?

Similarly what is the maximum time a crew can be on duty? Is it 16 hours?
 
hamad130
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:14 am

Hi
crew rest 12 hours ( 4 hours for crew transportation ,8 hours not interrupted )
crew duty depend on if augmented crew or not but by any way not exceed 18 hours .

Thank u
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MidnightMike
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:41 am

Yow

I am not sure about Canadian regulations, but as to US Regs:

Can not exceed 8 hours in a 24 hour period (Domestic)
Can not exceed 30 hours in a 7 day period (Domestic)
Can not exceed 20 hours in a 48 hour period (International)
Can not exceed 12 hours in a 24 hour period (International)
Need 1 day off in a 7 day period

Can not exceed 1000 hours in a 12 month period (Domestic)

These are just a view that I remember, the regs are also different for Flag & Scheduled carriers, & there are differences for a 2 & 3 man cockpit.
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Jeff G
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:14 pm

It's pretty complicated, complicated enough that even the pros mostly don't know exactly. "Yow" is right. For instance, MM above made two very common errors regarding domestic rest:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Can not exceed 8 hours in a 24 hour period (Domestic)

It's actually: cannot be scheduled for more than 8 hrs between rest periods. It's quite legal to exceed 8 hrs in a 24 hr period, as long as there's an intervening rest period. You can't blame MM though. Probably 9 out of 10 pilots would make the same mistake.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Can not exceed 1000 hours in a 12 month period (Domestic)

This should be: cannot exceed 1000 hrs in a calendar year. "12 month period" implies a rolling window and that's not required here.

With all that said, for domestic operations, there is no defined duty limit as such. You can be on duty indefinitely as long as you comply with rest requirements. This puts a de facto limit on duty, but that's not quite the same thing as having hard limits on duty time. Without dropping out of 121 regs into part 91 regs (which happens once in a while), you can often go right up to 16 hrs on duty without violating the rest requirements, so that's the de facto limit on duty time.

Bottom line: you often need software to sort it all out. It's needlessly complex.
 
yow
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting Jeff G (Reply 3):
Without dropping out of 121 regs into part 91 regs (which happens once in a while), you can often go right up to 16 hrs on duty without violating the rest requirements, so that's the de facto limit on duty time.

Thanks for all this info. So based on what Jeff said, you can basically work a split shift overnight. E.g. fly a leg from 2000-2300 hrs and then remain on duty while sleeping, then the following day fly from 0630-0900 hrs (assume all legs within the same time zone), and still be within the required minimums/16 hour duty day maximum. Correct?
 
Woodreau
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:08 am

Although the shift you posted is legal, the period between 2300 and 0630 is not a legal rest period even though you might be sleeping within it - ah another relatively generous standup overnight, I might consider just sleeping on the airplane - as it is less than the minimum rest period of 8 hours (the minimum rest period can be more depending on how many hours you are scheduled to fly within the 24 hour period.) The 16 hours is the maximum you can be on duty without rest.

However if you "dutied off" at 2300, then the earliest you can report back on duty is 0700.
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FL1TPA
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:34 am

Wow. These regs here are different than what I work under as a F/A at AirTran.

1) No certificate holder (part 121 scheduled airline such as FL) may assign a flight attendant to a scheduled duty period of more than 14 hours.

2) A F/A scheduled to a duty period of 14 hours or less... must be given a scheduled rest period of at least 9 consecutive hours.

3) Paraphrasing: Rest period may be reduced to 8 consecutive hours if, after the completion of the next duty period, 10 hours of rest is scheduled.

4) A F/A may be scheduled for duty periods greater than 14 hours but no more than 16 hours if an additional F/A is assigned to that flight. > Duty periods between 16 and 18 hours = 2 additional F/As. > Duty periods between 18 and 20 hours = 3 additional F/As.

5) A F/A scheduled to a duty period of more than 14 hours but no more than 20 hours... must be given a scheduled rest period of at lest 12 hours.

Keep in mind all of these requirements are for a "scheduled" F/A. A flight that's delayed 4 hours for weather is not "scheduling" the F/A over duty time. Theoretically, a F/A could be on duty up to 20 hours as long as a rest period of at least 12 consecutive hours is provided before beginning the next duty period.

Of course all of these regs are tempered by the F/A agreements with the Company; being in the form work rules or Union contracts.

Here at FL, we're never sceduled over 14 duty hours - although we may run over 14, 16 or even 18 hours due to weather, maintenance or other such irregular ops. The Company will then provide the needed rest before the next period of duty - even if it means delaying another flight.

Our contract with the Company also limits takeoffs and landings to a maximum of 7 per day - meaning no 8 leg days, thank heaven!

I have no knowledge of Cnadian regulations, but I do hope I have been informative.

FL1TPA
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Woodreau
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 2):
Yow

I am not sure about Canadian regulations, but as to US Regs:

Can not exceed 8 hours in a 24 hour period (Domestic)
Can not exceed 30 hours in a 7 day period (Domestic)
Can not exceed 20 hours in a 48 hour period (International)
Can not exceed 12 hours in a 24 hour period (International)
Need 1 day off in a 7 day period

Can not exceed 1000 hours in a 12 month period (Domestic)

These are just a view that I remember, the regs are also different for Flag & Scheduled carriers, & there are differences for a 2 & 3 man cockpit.

Adding onto Jeff G's clarification of MM's post:

Even US domestic regs differ depending on which part your carrier is authorized to operate under. There are 121 carriers who are allowed to use 135 flight time/rest regulations by waiver. ie a pilot is allowed to fly a maximum of 34 hours in 7 days, 120 hours a calendar month, 1200 hours a calendar year, which is slightly different from what was listed above - the 8 hours maximum without a rest period still applies though.

Also the 1 day off in a 7 day period is also a misnomer, the carrier only has to give 24 consecutive hours which means you can work 365 days straight as long as the carrier gives you 24 hours off every 7 days and you don't exceed the other flight time limitations.
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Jeff G
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:53 am

Quoting Yow (Reply 4):
So based on what Jeff said, you can basically work a split shift overnight.

Exactly. It's called a "highspeed", or continuous duty overnight. You aren't technically on rest, since the typical break doesn't meet minimum rest requirements. It's basically an extended break between flights in the middle of the night. I've never had to do them, but they're not on anyone's favorite activities list.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:24 pm

An Interesting LINK on the Topic.
regds
MEL
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MidnightMike
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 7):
Adding onto Jeff G's clarification of MM's post:

Even US domestic regs differ depending on which part your carrier is authorized to operate under. There are 121 carriers who are allowed to use 135 flight time/rest regulations by waiver. ie a pilot is allowed to fly a maximum of 34 hours in 7 days, 120 hours a calendar month, 1200 hours a calendar year, which is slightly different from what was listed above - the 8 hours maximum without a rest period still applies though.

Also the 1 day off in a 7 day period is also a misnomer, the carrier only has to give 24 consecutive hours which means you can work 365 days straight as long as the carrier gives you 24 hours off every 7 days and you don't exceed the other flight time limitations.

Like everybody said the crew regs are complex & difficult to spell them out, thanks guys for correcting me, thanks for correcting me on the two about can not schedule rather than can not exceed
BUT.

Just remember under Domestic REGs, if you do exceed the domestic regs of, such as, being schedule for a 7 hour & 59 flight, & you fly it in 8 hours 59 minutes, then you have to worry about the penalties, which I am not going into.

Also, you can fly 100 hours international flying, from 15-July to 15-August, & then still be able to fly 100 domestic hours from 16-August till 31-August & not break any legalities. The international REGS are on a rolling calendar, whereas the Domestic REGS are in a solid month...
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Tornado82
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:09 am

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10):


Just remember under Domestic REGs, if you do exceed the domestic regs of, such as, being schedule for a 7 hour & 59 flight, & you fly it in 8 hours 59 minutes, then you have to worry about the penalties, which I am not going into.

How's it your fault if the ATC routed you some convoluted way, or you hit wx and had to divert from your original plan? What are you supposed to do, turn into a pumpkin at the 8:00 mark?
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:30 pm

Ok, this might sound like an unrealistic scenario, but let's take a longer international flight that gets close to the maximum, say 11.30 hrs.
This would be within limits, but if delays happen - what is done?
-before take off (ground hold, long taxi, wait times...)
-during flight (weather, wind...)
-prior to landing (weather does not permit immediate landing...)

Assuming these (or other reasons...) would expand the flight time to be more than the allowed duty max - how do they deal with that? Divert? Have reserve on flights that get 'dangerously' close to the max? Just ignore the max and make it a 12.30 shift rather than diverting...?
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fxra
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:37 pm

For 2 man crews (in the supplemental 121 world at least, and Flag i think), theres the double out rule. If you exceed your 8 hours due to unforeseen or uncontrollable circumnstances, you need a 16 hour rest period. I have worked with an airline in the past that had an interesting (and sanctioned by the FAA) view on the pilots 16 hour duty limit. Essentially, if you went into a situation where your last leg of the day would be delayed to put you over 16 hours of duty, then you can be put into rest for 2, 4, 6 hours (whatever) in order to slide the crew under the 16 hour mark. For example, when the crew would land... scheduling would immediately put them in a rest period for the length required. It doesn;t need be 8 hours. With a three man crew (such as a b-727) flying under 121 supplemental reg on an international trip, there is technically no duty day limit... Thats duty time...

FLight times, with a 2 man crew we could scheudle you more than 8 hour sin a 24 hour period, given there was an intervening rest period double the flight time but not less than 8 ghours (i think)...

FLight attendant requirements are at least unifrom no matter what type of ops you fly, and all based on duty time, not legs or flight times.

ANd my favortie rule... legal to start, legal to finish. IF you started the day with a legal scheudle, and were pushed late due to WX, MX, or whatever thats uncontrolable (and the definition of uncontrollable varies from POI to POI)... you could finish it.

NOw these are actual instances I've seen happen, And since i'm out of that arena of operation (thank god) i may be a little rusty on the exact regs. But as its been specified before, the duty time regs in part 121 are redici=ulously complex...

later
jd
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CRJ900
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:24 am

Do most trans-Atlantic flights between East Coast US/Can and Europe operate with a two-man cockpit crew or do they have an extra pilot?
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lowrider
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RE: Crew Rest Minimums / Duty Maximums

Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:11 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 11):
How's it your fault if the ATC routed you some convoluted way, or you hit wx and had to divert from your original plan? What are you supposed to do, turn into a pumpkin at the 8:00 mark?

This is covered by the schedulers favorite mantra; "Legal to start, legal to finish". Meaning that so long as the flight schedule is planned to be legal, you can finish it, no matter what crops up, so long as you finish before your 16 hours of duty are up. Operating under domestic rules, I have had days as long as 10:30, but where only planned for about 7:45.
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