julesmusician
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Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:41 am

If you were holding and an engine failed does it merit a Pan call for immediate departure from the hold and would it vary from 2 and 4 engine aircraft? that is to say would air traffic treat you differently if you had 1 out on 4 instead of 1 out on 2 - do they constitute the same level of urgency if you were holding?

J

[Edited 2005-11-30 19:42:47]
African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
joness0154
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:48 am

Any engine failure on any plane I am flying would get a pan-pan call from me. Especially in a twin. 3 and 4 engine planes it might be a little different, but if I'm in a twin and I lose that second engine im pretty much SOL.

Although I've practiced holding on one engine in the seminole, it is not something that I would do unless I absolutely had to. One of the last steps I was taught to do in the event of an engine failure was to head to the nearest airport.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
Woodreau
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:27 am

Airliners (unlike light piston twins) are required to be able to fly on one engine, so there is time to take care of the engine failure and return to a field in a controlled manner.

Yes declare the emergency and advise ATC.

The nature of the emergency don't dictate different levels of urgency or treatment from ATC, an emergency is an emergency - it doesn't matter if it's a disoriented piston pilot in IMC with no gyros or airliner with an engine out - ATC gives both equal treatment - they have priority over everyone else.

I guess in this generic situation, losing an engine in the hold fuel permitting, I'd declare the emergency, use the hold to run all checklists and procedures - the engine failure inflight checklist, the single engine approach and landing checklist, single engine go around checklist - notify company so that they know you're coming back, they'll get you a gate assignment and start figuring out what to do with the passengers, TEST the flight attendant(s), brief the approach, then when you're good and ready tell ATC you're ready to depart the hold for the approach and land.

Yes an engine failure is an emergency, but usually there will be time to get ready for the landing that you don't need to get into a rush or get frantic or panic to get to an airport and land. At least that what they train us to, except for maybe elevated heart rate, all the procedures for the approach and landing on one engine is very similar to an approach and landing with all the engines running. If there isn't enough time, you do the best that you can using your best judgement.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
julesmusician
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 2):
TEST the flight attendant(s),

Which involves what?
African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:55 am

It does not matter how many engines you have, an engine failure is an emergency. You may be able to hold altitude without the bad engine but how do you know that when the engine failed it didn't take out something else as well. The DC10 crash in Iowa is a good example. That plane had 3 engines and "only" lost one.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
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zeke
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:19 pm

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
If you were holding and an engine failed does it merit a Pan call for immediate departure from the hold and would it vary from 2 and 4 engine aircraft? that is to say would air traffic treat you differently if you had 1 out on 4 instead of 1 out on 2 - do they constitute the same level of urgency if you were holding?

If holding, I would decare a pan, however remain in the hold, sort the aircraft out, do the checklists. Then come up with a plan of action. For me the autopilot would handle a failure in the hold, and can even do a OEI autoland with the autopilot on.

In a twin or quad, no emergency would exist if in the hold waiting to land. Take your time, brief the approach, then advise ATC of your plan, and request a clearance to carry that out.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 4):
It does not matter how many engines you have, an engine failure is an emergency.

Sorry that is incorrect.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:28 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):
Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 4):
It does not matter how many engines you have, an engine failure is an emergency.

Sorry that is incorrect.

Now that I think of it I remember reading about a 747 that had an engine failure coming out of LAX and decided to continue to Europe anyway. They did have to land short of their destination due to a miscalulated fuel burn rate. I am not a pilot but with having worked around jet engines I know they can fail in some spectacular ways. I, myself would land as soon as possible.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
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zeke
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:07 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
They did have to land short of their destination due to a miscalulated fuel burn rate.

That was not my understanding, my understanding was an unrelated fuel feed fault prevented access to the center fuel tank.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Woodreau
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting Julesmusician (Reply 3):
Quoting Woodreau (Reply 2):
TEST the flight attendant(s),

Which involves what?

Hmmm... I've seem to have forgotten exactly what the acronym TEST means, but basically it means telling the flight attendant what is going on, what you want them to do, any evacuation instructions after landing (either we are or we aren't), any other special instructions, and how much time they have to prepare the cabin and passengers for the landing.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
julesmusician
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:33 am

I think what has come from this is that there is a slight difference of opinion which is always interesting. If you were holding and and engine failed some people would go through their checklists then declare a pan to go straight in, but others maybe not? If you were told you had a ten minute hold and one failed, surely it might actually take longer for air traffic to move everyone around to accommodate getting you down quickly on a very busy night into a major city airport? Be interesting to hear from air traffic controllers and pilots on that one....
African Civil Aviation Commission president "You don't want to fly out as a passenger and come back as cargo."
 
jush
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 8):
TEST

No test means you wanna test 'em. Like you wanna proof if they hanlde their orders correctly in an emergency situation.
That's test for me.

Regds
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:41 am

We use NASSR for the flight attendants  


The urgency of beginning the approach depends on if you're in icing conditions and other extenuating circumstances.... an emergency is always declared... tell them the problem and that we need a couple minutes to run the checklist. When the checklist is done and we're all ready, then shoot the approach.

Fly the airplane, do not hurry, identify the emergency, read the checklist.

[Edited 2005-12-01 21:42:39]
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Stoicescu
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:29 am

What are the steps you are going through when briefing an approach and if you folks can write an example also will be great.

Many thanks in advance!
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:30 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
That was not my understanding, my understanding was an unrelated fuel feed fault prevented access to the center fuel tank.

Because of unfavorable winds and inefficiencies resulting from the engine loss, the Boeing 747-400 burned more fuel than anticipated, and the pilot was forced to cut the nonstop flight short and land in Manchester, England, the airline said.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...4_webflight01.html?syndication=rss
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
joness0154
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:35 pm

Quoting Stoicescu (Reply 12):
What are the steps you are going through when briefing an approach and if you folks can write an example also will be great.

Many thanks in advance!

Well, in my instrument training went something like this:

Once you know the approach to be flown-
decent checklist, if applicable
1)Retrieve chart, verify approach with instructor/SIC
2)Verify pilot flying, and pilot watching outside for runway environment
3)Brief the chart (approach name, approach type, radio/nav frequencies, course, MDA/DH, missed approach procedures, etc)
4)At the same time, be setting up necessary equipment like radio's, nav, GPS
5)Before landing checklist
6)Fly the approach  Smile
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
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zeke
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RE: Engine Failures While Holding Straight In Or Hold

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:41 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 13):
Because of unfavorable winds and inefficiencies resulting from the engine loss, the Boeing 747-400 burned more fuel than anticipated, and the pilot was forced to cut the nonstop flight short and land in Manchester, England, the airline said.

I have no doubt what was said in the papers, this is what was sent to me.

"BA 268 shut down one engine, the controller on 128.050 asked him if he was declaring a PAN, he said no. Then declared PAN PAN, said he couldnt get fuel from the tank, then went to 121.350, called Mayday Mayday. He didnt have the fuel for a go around, requested a sterile runway."

Have not seen an AAIB report yet.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar

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