hawker
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:18 pm

Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:30 am

This question must have been discussed before but can't find a reference anywhere.

I seem to recall that some airlines have forward facing belly (or nose) cameras which are available on the flight entertainment system.

I have just done a quick google search and quite a range of belly cameras seem to be commercially available.

Also just saw the whale jet assembly video, which included the instillation of a forward facing video camera on top of the fin.

Which leads me to the question are belly video cameras facing forward and aft available as options from the manufacturers and are they/should they be fitted as a matter of course at least to all large jets.

Advantages would include;
Undercarriage checks - although a whale jet doing a low and slow flyby of the tower would be rather cool!
Confirmation of symmetrical flap extension and position.
Engine fires or other damage.
Fuel leaks.
Check on fuel dumping.
Ability to grease the tyres onto the tarmac. I realize there are super accurate altimeters to identify when the tyres are about to touch, but a visual indicator would be a great help.
Check for tyre fires after landing.
And maybe even possible missile attacks.

Just a thought.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:33 am

We live in an industry that has resisted DFDR/CVR batteries for crying out loud, cameras won't be installed.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:34 am

I agree with you. Cameras now a days weigh almost nothing. I don't see any drawback to having them.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 1):
cameras won't be installed

They already are on some models
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:40 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 3):
They already are on some models

Not as a flight safety issue, merely because taxiing the aircraft is difficult without them.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
andz
Posts: 7628
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting Hawker (Thread starter):
I have just done a quick google search and quite a range of belly cameras seem to be commercially available.

Also just saw the whale jet assembly video, which included the installation of a forward facing video camera on top of the fin.

SAA and many other airlines have both on their 346s
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:25 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 2):
I agree with you. Cameras now a days weigh almost nothing. I don't see any drawback to having them.

still extra weight though, all adds up over the fleet and over the years!

i cant see many operators doing it for the reasons mentioned unless they were made to!
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:55 am

Well, when I was on my CX 777 flight from TPE to HKG, the pax really appreciated the camera because it was fun to watch (those of us who watched anyway). I think it's a good feature, but it's too bad the pilots don't always turn it on.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:27 pm

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
still extra weight though, all adds up over the fleet and over the years!

Are you serious? The requisite cameras weigh just ounces these days.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
milan320
Posts: 818
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:25 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:31 pm

I flew CPH-FRA with SAS 2 weeks ago on an A321. Despite SAS's dismal service for a full-fare ticket, I was pleasantly surprised to see that the best entertainment on that flight was the nose camera. It was turned on from the moment we started taxiing, onwards into the de-icing bay and then all the way through take-off. Once we were airborne, it changed to top-down view (kind of like in FS9).
It was turned off shortly after but turned on again for the landing.
Cool stuff!
-Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 8):
The requisite cameras weigh just ounces these days.

The structural mods, wiring and other heardware weigh may times the weight of the camera.

The bottom line is a money thing. For many operators the question to be answered is, what can we do with a camera that we cannot do without and how much is that worth to us?

Tod

[Edited 2005-12-04 19:11:52]
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 8):
Are you serious? The requisite cameras weigh just ounces these days.

yep deadly serious......may only be a few ounces, times this my a fleet of thirty.....multiplied by say 16 hrs a day flying, multiplied by say 40-45 weeks a year........how much do ya reckon that adds up to? probably tens of thousands!

never mind all the extra's as Tod has pointed out!
 
GBan
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:10 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 11):
multiplied by say 16 hrs a day flying

One ounce flying 16 hours is 16 ounces???
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:20 am

No....you Know that's not what I mean! Stop being pedantic!

i'll make it nice an simple.....lets say one ounces costs a penny to carry per hour, thats 30p per fleet per hour times by 16 hours a day = £4.80 per day times that by 7 = £33.60 per week multiplied by say 40 weeks gives us £1344 per year.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 10):
The structural mods, wiring and other heardware weigh may times the weight of the camera.

The bottom line is a money thing. For many operators the question to be answered is, what can we do with a camera that we cannot do without and how much is that worth to us?

And don't forget someone has to service this system, someone had to design it, someone had to write a service bulletin to install it and I could go on and on. If its designed into the aircraft that's one thing but retrofitting it would be very costly.
 
TGV
Posts: 717
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:37 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:27 am

According to this thread:
Airlines With Cameras

the following airlines have cameras on some of their planes (the newest, obviously):

Aerolineas Argentinas
Air France
Austrian Airlines
British Middlands
Cathay Pacific
China Airlines
Condor
Emirates
EVA Air
Finnair
Gulf Air
Iberia
Japan Airlines
Lan Chile
MyTravel
Philippine Airlines
Qantas
SAS
South African
Sri Lankan
Swiss
Thai
Varig

A quite extensive list !
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:20 pm

An aircraft that requires cameras to safely operate is inherently unsafe.
An aircraft should always be operational using only the eyes of the crew and the lowest possible equipment level (basically the backup instruments).
I wish I were flying
 
Captintut
Posts: 317
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 1:35 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:35 pm

Quoting Hawker (Thread starter):
Also just saw the whale jet assembly video, which included the instillation of a forward facing video camera on top of the fin.

I flew MS last jun on the route JFK - CAI - JFK on their 772 and they have both cams, and it was really awesome specially during takeoff and landing, was much fun.

TuTl
Aircraft Flown: B747-B777-B737-B767-B757-A300-A318-A319-A320-A321-A330-A340-MD80-MD90-CRJ600-CRJ900-E190-A380
 
concentriq
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:37 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:12 pm

Quoting TGV (Reply 15):
According to this thread:
Airlines With Cameras

the following airlines have cameras on some of their planes (the newest, obviously):

Aerolineas Argentinas
Air France
Austrian Airlines
British Middlands
Cathay Pacific
China Airlines
Condor
Emirates
EVA Air
Finnair
Gulf Air
Iberia
Japan Airlines
Lan Chile
MyTravel
Philippine Airlines
Qantas
SAS
South African
Sri Lankan
Swiss
Thai
Varig

A quite extensive list !

....and yet: not a single one is from the US!! bad bad
Mobilis In Mobili
 
MarshalN
Posts: 1474
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:39 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:37 pm

Quoting Concentriq (Reply 18):
....and yet: not a single one is from the US!! bad bad

Are we surprised? I'm not.

It's quite sad, but the state of the industry is such that American carriers are now the epitome of poor service. Many people I know loathe flying domestic American in Y because, well, service is nonexistent on any carrier.
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 14):
And don't forget someone has to service this system, someone had to design it, someone had to write a service bulletin to install it and I could go on and on.

Certify installation.
Provide instructions for continued airworthiness.
Revise ops manuals.
Revise maintenance manuals.
Stock spare parts.
On and on . . . .

Quoting 474218 (Reply 14):
If its designed into the aircraft that's one thing but retrofitting it would be very costly.

OEM design and installation can easily be just as expensive. Retrofit installation is more difficult, but the aftermarket companies usually have lower overhead costs.

Tod
 
concentriq
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:37 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 19):
Many people I know loathe flying domestic American in Y because, well, service is nonexistent on any carrier.

except YX signature. while STILL no belly cams. service and everything else is A++

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 19):
Are we surprised? I'm not.

The state of US airline industry looks horrible indeed. do european carriers suffer just as much? (probably deserves its own thread, but...)
Mobilis In Mobili
 
concentriq
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:37 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 20):
Certify installation.
Provide instructions for continued airworthiness.
Revise ops manuals.
Revise maintenance manuals.
Stock spare parts.
On and on . . . .

Ah! I recognize the voice of fellow engineer.

Common mistake, it seems, that most people dont realize the HUGE amount of work that goes into what appears on the surface as smallest change. Especially if the industry is regulated by some gov't body.
Mobilis In Mobili
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
still extra weight though, all adds up over the fleet and over the years!

Carry 2 less gallons of water, that should equal it out.

Quoting Tod (Reply 20):
Quoting 474218 (Reply 14):
And don't forget someone has to service this system, someone had to design it, someone had to write a service bulletin to install it and I could go on and on.

Certify installation.
Provide instructions for continued airworthiness.
Revise ops manuals.
Revise maintenance manuals.
Stock spare parts.
On and on . . . .

If we had that attitude years ago we would still be flying propjobs with gasoline engines. Remember they said jet engines would never be feasible for commercial airliners.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 15):
Aerolineas Argentinas
Air France
Austrian Airlines
British Middlands
Cathay Pacific
China Airlines
Condor
Emirates
EVA Air
Finnair
Gulf Air
Iberia
Japan Airlines
Lan Chile
MyTravel
Philippine Airlines
Qantas
SAS
South African
Sri Lankan
Swiss
Thai
Varig

A quite extensive list !

*ahem* Dont forget Virgin Atlantic...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
Airgypsy
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 1999 11:02 am

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:30 am

The camera issue has been bouncing around the FAA and they are well on their way to putting video in the cockpit with the voice recorder (the Egypt Air crash left too many questions). They also want a cabin camera to view the cockpit door area and external cameras to monitor aircraft configuration. It is coming.
Airgypsy
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29978
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:04 pm

Quoting Airgypsy (Reply 25):
It is coming

Its high time We use Technology to help in Investigations that can help avoid such Accidents in future.Only thing that it should not be misused.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Grbld
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:25 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:43 pm

I had a brief stint on some leased Condor B753s which do have a nose camera installed, right in front of the first officer's windshield wiper.

While it is very neat, this one has NOTHING to do with safety, merely as a service to the customer. So this falls into the same category as IFE systems and how much an airline wants to invest in those, in order to attract and keep their customers.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 16):
An aircraft that requires cameras to safely operate is inherently unsafe.

Meneer Wenting, I think you're seeing things too black and white. An aircraft that requires cameras to safely operate may be LESS safe IF the cameras don't work than an aircraft that doesn't require them.

The B773 and A346 have them because they're just really long and add an extra safety margin during taxiing. Perhaps they are not even required for dispatch.

To be honest, I think that installing cameras in some places on the outside would be a great idea and they may come in handy when things start breaking and you can use every extra bit of info in order to make the right decision. There have been plenty of accidents where a better outcome may have occurred if the pilots would've been able to see what was wrong with the airplane.

An added bonus is that on some cameras, such as on the 777 and 346, you can monitor the turnaround process much better, see the status of baggage loading, whether the fuel guy has arrived or finished fueling, whether they're still catering, if the aft stairs are still connected or whether the pushback driver is there (things you can't always see from the flight deck). I'd love being able to have that extra info.

Grbld
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29978
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting Grbld (Reply 27):
had a brief stint on some leased Condor B753s which do have a nose camera installed, right in front of the first officer's windshield wiper.

I presume without Audio  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Grbld
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:25 pm

RE: Belly Cameras Essential Equipment?

Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 28):
I presume without Audio

Full Dolby Digital 5.1  Smile

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