goinv
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Why Use CRT Monitors?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:43 pm

I work in a computer shop where we sell one of the old fashioned CRT monitors to every 99 of the new slimline TFT monitors.

Not only do TFT's look better but they are lighter as well.

As far as I am aware, airlines only use CRT monitors on flight-decks. Why not use TFT's? They are lighter and would require less fuel. Are there any less obvious implications of using TFT's rathers that CRT's?

Thanks
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Matt72033
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:15 pm

they use LCD's in flight decks, not only are they lighter, but i believe they run cooler and therefore quieter too!
 
buckfifty
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:29 pm

There is a gradual transition now to LCD screens in cockpits. But as with anything in the aviation industry, things do take a bit of time compared with the consumer electronics industry. Mostly due to certification standards, and reliability issues.

For example, the Airbus MCDU's we use run with an equivalent of a 286 processor. Sounds archaic, but just enough to do the job.
 
star_world
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:13 pm

A340-600 with LCD screens:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bjorn Alegren



A340-300 with CRT screens:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tomás Coelho - AirTeamImages



As mentioned above, LCD screens are now becoming much more common in flight decks, and are pretty much standard in all new models today.
 
Glom
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:26 pm

That A346 cockpit looks really pretty. I'm usually not that enamoured with the looks of Airbus cockpits but that one is enough to get me reconsidering.

However, there appears to be no body attached to that hand? Airlines are recruiting Thing to fly their planes!

[Edited 2005-12-06 13:28:27]
 
Pyrex
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:27 pm

Don't forget that a new TFT monitor you sell today in your shop will be completely unserviceable in a few years, meaning there is no way you can repair it or buy a replacement one.

An aircraft will have to fly for at least 20 years so you have to make sure that in 15 years time you still have spare parts and replacement units. That is one of the reasons things take so long to reach aviation.

If you want something to really be amazed, the equivalent to a Pentium processor (the early ones) is something still highly unusual in satellites. The reason there is mainly reliability, and resistance to radiation.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:32 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
Don't forget that a new TFT monitor you sell today in your shop will be completely unserviceable in a few years, meaning there is no way you can repair it or buy a replacement one

Pls Elobrate what do you mean by unserviceable.are you talking in terms of reliability or spares.

LCD monitors are gradually replacing CRT monitors in Display units.They are more clearer & having better resolution & reliability.

regds
MEL
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Pyrex
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:50 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
Pls Elobrate what do you mean by unserviceable.are you talking in terms of reliability or spares.

Consumer electronics advance so rapidly that equipment becomes obsolete in a matter of years. Modern equipment like TFTs are not made to be repaired: when it does break you can probably get a newer, better one in the market for almost the same price it would cost you to repair it, if you can do it. They are basically disposable.

Reliability isn't a major issue, availability of replacements and spares is.
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FredT
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:36 am

The biggest show stopper for LCDs has been readability in various lighting conditions (i e direct sunlight) and at all angles. That's pretty much a solved issue now though.
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LMP737
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 2):
For example, the Airbus MCDU's we use run with an equivalent of a 286 processor. Sounds archaic, but just enough to do the job.

The 777 runs equivalent to a 386 if memory serves me correctly. I know some will say why don't they update it. The problem there is that you would have to change the type certificate. Along with driving up the costs for the airlines.

Right now AA is in the process of replacing the "steam gauge" ADI and HSI's on their older MD-80's with LCD's. Over the years it has become more and more expensive to repair the "steam gauge" ADI and HSI's because a lot of the parts have been stopped being produced. By replacing them with more reliable LCD's AA expects to save $36 million a year in maintenance and flight crew training costs.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:46 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 9):
The 777 runs equivalent to a 386 if memory serves me correctly. I know some will say why don't they update it. The problem there is that you would have to change the type certificate. Along with driving up the costs for the airlines.

There's also the old "if it works, don't fix it". Why bother with all the certification if the old one does the job. No more processing power is needed than what's in there. You're not going to play Doom 3 on the FMC.

The computer industry is different, in that processing power is still catching up to demand.
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LMP737
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:41 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
You're not going to play Doom 3 on the FMC.

I'm a Halo fan myself.  Wink
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prebennorholm
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting FredT (Reply 8):
The biggest show stopper for LCDs has been readability in various lighting conditions (i e direct sunlight) and at all angles. That's pretty much a solved issue now though.

Exactly! In year 2000 I got a terribly expensive IBM TFT office screen. It served the job, but looked upon from an angle it was useless. It was practically impossible for two persons to study a display simultaneously. I often missed my 1994 vintage CRT, but as we had also got smaller desks...

Last year it broke and was exchanged with a new Samsung at a fraction of the 2000 price. What a revolution!!! And like the old CRT it can also be used in daylight.

Right now I'm working a private two months old Dell laptop. It has of course a much lower power consumption, and the result is the same as the 2000 IBM TFT. But when needed I just plug an old CRT which I haven't disposed yet.

It simply isn't until rather lately that the TFT technology has become good enough to be used on airliners.
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A319XFW
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 9):
The 777 runs equivalent to a 386 if memory serves me correctly. I know some will say why don't they update it. The problem there is that you would have to change the type certificate. Along with driving up the costs for the airlines.

And everything has to be retrofittable and compatible. You will have to be able to install a new system and it will still have to be interchangable with the current units in service (e.g. spares)

IIRC, the Space Shuttle flies using 8086 processors? Now that is a feat of engineering using those!
 
deltagator
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 13):
IIRC, the Space Shuttle flies using 8086 processors? Now that is a feat of engineering using those!

I believe those were the original processors but they have since been upgraded to....Pentium 90s! (I think that upgrade also brought in the glass panels.) I grew up across the river from the Space Center and my dad worked for the the company that made the nose cone and aft skirts for the boosters so I have tons of info about those. IIRC the fuel pumps for the shuttle were pretty much off the shelf items from old Korean War era jet fighters. Knowing how old the tecnology is on the shuttle (pretty much the same design from the original thought in the 60s) it is downright amazing they even get up in the air.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:21 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 12):
It simply isn't until rather lately that the TFT technology has become good enough to be used on airliners.

Indeed. I used to be involved in selling workstations to people who ran CAD and Digital Content Creation (think Shrek). It took a long time before flat panels took over in the high end applications, because the late (last) generation CRTs would beat them hands down until only a very few years ago. Mere mortals like me would not notice the difference, but if you are a digital artist minute details can affect your work.
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KELPkid
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:50 am

Quoting Goinv (Thread starter):
I work in a computer shop where we sell one of the old fashioned CRT monitors to every 99 of the new slimline TFT monitors.

Not only do TFT's look better but they are lighter as well.

As far as I am aware, airlines only use CRT monitors on flight-decks. Why not use TFT's? They are lighter and would require less fuel. Are there any less obvious implications of using TFT's rathers that CRT's?

Thanks

The CRTs used in aviation are also vector-scan scopes (remember the original Atari Sar Wars arcade video game, or Battlezone? Both of these used vector scan scopes instead of the more common raster-scan CRTs).

Vector scan CRTs have one distinct advantage over raster scan CRTs: they are visible in direct sunlight, and the brightness can be cranked up that high.

Disadvantages? If you try to display too much information, the vector scan CRT cannot keep up with it after a certain point.

Obviously, raster scan and vector technology are not compatible with each other, so TFT displays are out (without some very expensive, and probably hard to certify, conversion hardware) in a 1:1 replacement. However, I'm pretty sure that new flight decks on new aircraft will be taking advantage of LCD technology. We are already seeing this in General Aviation (look at Garmin's G100). I regularly fly a Cessna 172 with a TFT moving map display that is quite readable in all lighting conditons (even direct sunlight!). It's an Apollo MX20 moving map for those who are interested in such details...
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 9):
The 777 runs equivalent to a 386 if memory serves me correctly

It actually has three 486 processors, made by Intel, Motorola and AMD.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 16):
It's an Apollo MX20 moving map

I love the MX20!!! Even better when you got ADS-B information!!!
 
KELPkid
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 17):
I love the MX20!!! Even better when you got ADS-B information!!!

Beautiful piece of hardware, especially when paired with the CNX80 (which, I understand, Garmin has put out of production since taking over Apollo....bummer!)  Sad

Although It is a bit disconcerting seeing Windows NT 4.0 boot up on the MX20 when you turn the avionics master on...makes me wonder when this wonderkid is going to blue screen on me in actual IMC  Wink Fortunately, it's just a moving map, and you can go on without it...just with slightly reduced situational awareness.
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ShyFlyer
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 18):
CNX80 (which, I understand, Garmin has put out of production since taking over Apollo....bummer!)

Nah, they just renamed it the GNS 480.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Why bother with all the certification if the old one does the job. No more processing power is needed than what's in there

Expanding on this, the computer systems in the cockpit don't have the bloat that Windoze PC processors have to cope with.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:36 am

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 19):

Expanding on this, the computer systems in the cockpit don't have the bloat that Windoze PC processors have to cope with.

Oh indeed. But then again they don't have to integrate software and hardware from hundreds of sources, AND a graphical interface.

For the record, I'm a Mac fan who doesn't own a Mac  Sad
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:27 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 18):
Although It is a bit disconcerting seeing Windows NT 4.0 boot up on the MX20 when you turn the avionics master on...makes me wonder when this wonderkid is going to blue screen on me in actual IMC

Ahh yes, the infamous blue screen of death  scared 

Also, I think it runs on CE, not NT from what I remember reading in the display.

Still, I think it provides the best bang for the buck out of most all other aftermarket upgrades.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why Use CRT Monitors?

Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:41 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 21):
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 18):
Although It is a bit disconcerting seeing Windows NT 4.0 boot up on the MX20 when you turn the avionics master on...makes me wonder when this wonderkid is going to blue screen on me in actual IMC

Ahh yes, the infamous blue screen of death scared

Also, I think it runs on CE, not NT from what I remember reading in the display.

Still, I think it provides the best bang for the buck out of most all other aftermarket upgrades.

Windows can be very stable if tested properly and not tampered with. The whole BSOD thing is not really an issue anymore in Enterprise class systems with good change control.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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