darrenthe747
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Airline Pilots using Flight Sim for training

Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:22 pm

Good evening,

first of all, I realize this is a question more suited for the Hobby forum, but since that is primarily Flight Sim enthusiasts and not so much airline pilots I wanted to ask in this forum. I monitor and participate in some Flight Simulator forums of certain payware sites and I have noticed that there seem to be a lot of "airline pilots" of this airline or that giving us their expertese in the area of large aircraft ops. Some of these "pilots" with their excellent grammar and spelling skills really make me wonder if they are indeed pilots.

Does anybody know of airline pilots, who go from the amazing real life cockpits, real life weather, beautiful sunsets, crowded airspace, angry passengers..... to boring old FS? I mean to me it's fun, because I am not an airline pilot. If I were to be hired tomorrow as an airline pilot today would be my last day playing FS. Any thoughts?

Darren
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
 
thegreatchecko
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Airline Pilots using Flight Sim for training

Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:05 pm

Darren,

I agree. I haven't flown in FS since I started flying the real thing (C-172 ).

Subsequently, I've used it for instrument practice, but even then only occasionally.

I think your skepticism is well placed.

GreatChecko

PS: Who says that pilots cannot have good grammar?

Disclaimer: I'm no airline pilot (yet), I'm just a lowly CFI  Smile

[Edited 2005-12-16 11:05:58]
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
ZKSUJ
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Airline Pilots using Flight Sim for training

Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:07 pm

I know of at least two airline pilots that Play FS, and I know many airline pilots in training who play FS too.
 
Woodreau
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RE: So Called Airline Pilots

Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:48 pm

Hey - I think I have pretty good grammar and spelling skills and I am an airline pilot.  Smile I just think being articulate with correct grammar and spelling just shows you've been educated at some point in the past. But I'm not going to rag on anyone who has lots of misspellings. I was a journalism major in college a long time ago though.

But I rarely dibble in MSFS anymore. There's just not enough time in the day.

As far as those airline pilots on the flight simulator sites - they may really be airline pilots and they may not be. It is the internet - you can be anything you want on the internet. And nobody is policing what you do on your time off.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
darrenthe747
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:05 pm

well why i thought i would bring this up here is because the a.net tech/ops forum is probably IMHO one of the best aviation forums on the net, mainly because there are some great members (real pilots) here with so much info, and if someone here tried to post something that was total b.s. it would be called out immediately.

but tipically you wouldn't see a pilot spel like this becuse they are usally kinda smart and a bit educated, at least somwhat.

anyway, there was a thread that started up in a forum which caught my attention and it really made me think the guy was full of it. which may or may not be so. but what REALLY got me thinking, was WHY would airline pilots even want to play FS? we simmers are always striving for as much realism as we can get, but you airline pilots couldn't get any more real than real, right? so it just left me wondering if there are airline pilots who use flight simulator, and why?
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pilotpip
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:51 pm

Pilots can fly airplanes, they don't do much else  

All jokes aside, you may be on to something. However, I don't think grammar is something to base your assumptions on because of where people's skills lie. I'm a pilot, with a degree but I always found the numbers side of the education more difficult than the part that focuses on words. You probably know a thing or two about airplanes. If it sounds like BS, it is likely BS.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 1):
I'm just a lowly CFI

Are you still scaring away students?  

[Edited 2005-12-16 15:54:05]
DMI
 
Grbld
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:41 am

Well I must say it can be a good aid when practicing your instrument flying, getting familiar with VORs, NDBs and ILSes. Other than that, I like FS because I marvel at the way a computer can simulate stuff like that, and it keeps becoming more advanced and advanced. Especially with the newer systems logic, FMSes etc that 3rd party developers are making for FS.

Furthermore, once in a while, I use it to check out an airport that I'm flying to but have never been and get a 3D visualization of the runways and surroundings (mountains, water etc).

Other than that, I don't have time to do a one-hour flight (bah) let alone do an actual cross-ocean flight of 12 hours that I hear some people do. I'll leave the being slightly bored and reading magazines and newspapers and drinking coffee to the real cockpit where I get paid  Wink

Grbld.
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 5):
Are you still scaring away students?

Got one that decided to skip ground school... not once, but over 10 times.

Problem is that he is going to have to wait a year to retake the course.

However, no one has run off yet!  Smile

Quoting Grbld (Reply 6):
Well I must say it can be a good aid when practicing your instrument flying, getting familiar with VORs, NDBs and ILSes.

Its a great use for flight sim. I always encourage my students to get on there and shoot approaches and practice holds. MSFS is actually a great sim in that aspect, much better than some of the FAA approved PC Sim crap you'll find out there.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
FlyHoss
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:44 am

Just about the time I was scheduled to upgrade from 727 FO to 737 Captain, I had a mishap at home, breaking a few bones, etc. I used MSFS (purchased solely because it included a 737-400) during that downtime to practice the "profiles" (from my new copy of the company's 737 Aircraft Flight Manual) for the 737. I also managed to get CDs of 737 systems. I hadn't previously flown a 737 before, so the opportunity to "pre-train" in the 737 was a real benefit and the actual 737 training went well.
I haven't touched MSFS in a couple of years now.
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ArcticTern
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:00 pm

Hi Darrenthe747

I have come across a few trainee pilots who use FS and also fly, you may not be able to get the perfect picture, realism weather G forces and so forth but FS does help to familiarise with the cockpit and instruments.

"Knowledge is Power", where else would you get to know on how to operate the Taxi light switch on a A300-B4 or look for auto break switch on a 737, unless you are endorsed to fly on all the aircrafts.

I find FS usefull. Secondly about the grammar, English might not be their main language. Few countries have pilots who communicate in their native language and learn English as a foreign language.

The most important aspect is, they are still pilots and as far as I am concerned, I would like to get the best experience and knowledge out of the pilots. It really doesnt matter if usually is spelt usully or usualy, as long as you are able to comprehend what the other person is saying.

This my my honest opinion.

Regards,
Sushant
I wanted to fly even before I knew how to pronounce the word 'Pilot'
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:55 pm

I know a few Commercial pilots that use FS too.Its not the real thing but helps to experiment safely.
regds
MEL
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turnit56N
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:02 am

Quoting Darrenthe747 (Reply 4):
but tipically you wouldn't see a pilot spel like this becuse they are usally kinda smart and a bit educated, at least somwhat.

You must not read ACARS messages much.  Smile

FS is a good training tool for instrument students. When I was a CFI I had a lot of students that messed around with MSFS a lot. I've known a few airline pilots that used various PC-based simulators to practice flows in training. With a good sim, it can be a useful way to practice which button and knob does what before jumping into an FTD or a full-motion sim at the training center.

I don't personally know of any airline pilots that play with FS for fun, but I'm sure there are a few out there. I used to before I started training, but now it just seems a bit too much like taking the office home.
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting Turnit56N (Reply 11):

I don't personally know of any airline pilots that play with FS for fun, but I'm sure there are a few out there.

As you say, there must be a few. Here's one: http://www.hilmerby.com/

Stellan Hilmerby is an SAS pilot, currently a A340 Captain (former Royal Swedish Air Force Draken/Viggen Pilot, SAS DC-8 F/O, DC-9/MD-8x Captain).

He is a very active member of Scandinavian Virtual Airlines ( http://www.scandinavian-va.net ). He has built several MSFS add-ons, including a detailed DC-9 cockpit ( http://www.hilmerby.com/fs_addon.html
). He has also written the flight "manual" for Scandinavian Virtual Airlines. This ( http://www.scandinavian-va.net/flightops/procedures/procedures.aspx ) and his own DC-9/MD-80 pages ( http://www.hilmerby.com/dcmd_flying.html ) are goldmines for the aviation enthusiast.

Ok hero worship ending now  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
darrenthe747
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:09 pm

hey guys,
thanks for the info. i was honestly just a bit skeptical of a real pilot going onto FS and flying a 3 - 4 or maybe even a 10+ hour flight. training i could see, but i guess it could be a hobby too. that's why i love this forum. i know the people here for the most part are true and tell it like it is. that's why i asked!

Darren
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
 
saab2000
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:39 am

One of my biggest annoyances is airline pilots who can't spell or write properly!!! I see it all the time. At my company we have an online forum and the grammar is sometimes embarrassing. They have opinions on everything and consider themselves to be pretty bright people, but are unable to write a complete sentence or anything even remotely understandable. Some of the stuff I see written would not be acceptable in a third grade English class. I digress....

I have never heard of pilots who use home flight simulators, but that doesn't mean they are not out there. After all, I do know of several airline pilots who spend a lot of time on radio-controlled airplanes. It is a big hobby for them.

Personally, I never got into the computer simulators, but they can be useful for learning basic instrument procedures and managing several things at the same time. The cost is minimal and they help to increase knowledge.

But I have a couple friends who are huge fans of computer based flight sims and spend hours 'flying' from ZRH to LAX and other places around the globe. And these are people who have worked in aviation for years and are very knowledgeable. They are just not pilots, but in one case the guy surely knows more about aviation than most pilots.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 14):
But I have a couple friends who are huge fans of computer based flight sims and spend hours 'flying' from ZRH to LAX and other places around the globe. And these are people who have worked in aviation for years and are very knowledgeable. They are just not pilots, but in one case the guy surely knows more about aviation than most pilots.

I know those people  Wink

In fact, my two most nutty MSFS friends work for Microsoft. They have befriended some people at the flight training center for a major airline, and done some full motion simming. They have even done jumpseating. On one of the flights, my friend got to start up the 737 from scratch for the first flight of the morning (of course the Captain was doublechecking what he did). He chickened when the Captain told him to start the engines though  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
darrenthe747
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:02 am

there's no question that with todays addons like the PMDG 737 and 747 etc. you can learn A LOT about how the systems of these airplanes work. in my time in the air force i would always go up to the cockpits of the commercial cargo 747's and chat with the pilots. they were pretty amazed i knew what i knew from MSFS!! but like i said though, everytime i would go from the beautiful 747 cockpit back to my dorm room with my 19" monitor to "fly" a 747, i was feeling a bit like something was missing... that's why i didn't understand why these airline pilots would want to do that.

Darren
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
 
qxeguy
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:25 am

When I get home from a day/night of flying, the LAST thing I want to do is get on the computer and pretend to fly. Yet, for some reason I am always compelled to buy the latest and greatest version.

I do like to put myself into really difficult situations once in a while that I would never do in real life and see if I can get out of it (High Density Altitude, airport in a canyon, etc)

IMHO MSFS is excellent for instrument procedures without having to worry about paying for an airplane, getting yelled at by a CFII, Ice etc.
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usnseallt82
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:18 am

The Navy now uses a variation of the Microsoft program to train all pilots/FO's in their early stages before hitting the full-motion sim's.

Like others have already said, it is an excellent way to practice approaches and other instrument procedures that don't require any additional software. If nothing else, it keeps you familiar with the aviation environment.

Now, whether or not those guys were/are actual pilots, who knows. But I do know that the FS software is used in certain training programs, both civilian and military.
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ArcticTern
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:33 am

How does it even matter if the pilot doesn’t have a good vocabulary? If the pilot is good with RT then that is all he need, are we forgetting the fact some of the pilots have English as their foreign language?

Anyways, let us get the best of every pilot, learn the best techniques.

I am fan of MS, how often do you see the serviceable area of the engine on a 777-300 LR?

Thanks,
Sushant
I wanted to fly even before I knew how to pronounce the word 'Pilot'
 
saab2000
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:00 am

I am talking about pilots whose native language is English. Obviously, pilots who grew up speaking something else are excused from my rant!!  duck 
smrtrthnu
 
Ryanair737
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:05 am

Quite a few pilots that I have spoken to this year have the PMDG B737 and Level-D B767 add-ons. A B757/B767 Captain actually told me that the Level-D B767 is an extremely realistic representation of the real thing! So I guess the answer is while FS add-ons cannot be used for flight training, quite a few airline pilots use them to brush up their skills before a sim check etc.

Regards
Ryanair737

[Edited 2005-12-20 21:14:01]
LAST FLIGHTS= Ryanair LPL-BGY-LPL - EI-DPS/DWV - MAY 08 // NEXT FLIGHTS= TBC
 
darrenthe747
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:13 pm

that's awesome to hear they are so real. now i feel even better using them. as for the poor grammar and spelling, obviously non-native english speakers don't count. but i expect the pilot why is flying the 747 i am a passenger on to be a well rounded, educated individual. period.
All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
 
gordonsmall
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:35 pm

Quoting Darrenthe747 (Reply 22):
but i expect the pilot why is flying the 747 i am a passenger on to be a well rounded, educated individual. period.

Why? I don't give a rats-ass if he knows quotes from old films, can work out the square root of 165492384 to 7000 decimal places in his head or has perfect grammar! All I'm interested in is whether or not he's a first-class 'pilot'!

Admittedly being a pilot it more than stick and rudder skills, - and CRM, decision making, social-skills and quality of leadership all come into play in making a good 'pilot' - but I don't care how many spelling and grammar mistakes he makes, as long as he knows his stuff when he's dealing with an uncontained engine failure at V1 at MTOW.  Smile
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Starlionblue
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting Darrenthe747 (Reply 22):
as for the poor grammar and spelling, obviously non-native english speakers don't count.

I think that it does matter somewhat even for us non-native speakers.

Now, a pilot does not need perfect English. He or she needs good enough English to communicate clearly and unambiguously on the job. But that is no excuse for laziness.

"If you cannot say what you mean, you cannot mean what you say."
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
darrenthe747
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:31 pm

Gordonsmall,

thanks for your hyperbolic response. so you're saying you wouldn't mind somebody with a 7th grade education flying your airplane, so long as he can fly it!?!? most crashes are due to pilot error. your comment was completely contradictory. you quote me: "but i expect the pilot who is flying the 747 i am a passenger on to be a well rounded, educated individual. period."
then you say

Quote:
Why? I don't give a rats-ass if he knows quotes from old films, can work out the square root of 165492384 to 7000 decimal places in his head or has perfect grammar! All I'm interested in is whether or not he's a first-class 'pilot'!

is well rounded all of a sudden Sir Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein?
Well-rounded. NOT rainman.
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AJ
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:43 pm

Darren, I use the 767 Level-D add-on for FS2004 to prepare for my simulator rides. It is very accurate, especially as a procedural trainer.
 
Grbld
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:18 pm

Quoting Gordonsmall (Reply 23):
I don't give a rats-ass if he knows quotes from old films

Oh come on now! Any pilot that doesn't know any Top Gun quotes should be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog **** out of Hong Kong!  Smile

Grbld
 
darrenthe747
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RE: Airline Pilots Using Flight Sim For Training

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:53 pm

Quote:
Quoting Grbld Reply 27
Oh come on now! Any pilot that doesn't know any Top Gun quotes should be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog **** out of Hong Kong!

          

...you can be my wingman anytime  vomit 

[Edited 2005-12-22 13:58:12]
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